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ChrisSeraph
5/29/2008 5:05am,
Greetings to all,

I attended this school for about two years, four years ago now. I’ve just found this site and thought it would be an interesting to throw this to the hounds, being you guys.

http://www.siulumgar.com (http://www.siulumgar.com/)

Chief Instructor and Founder: Martin Lindgreen (whom I trained under directly). On the website you’ll find

“Mr. Lindgreen is a Master Instructor in Kung Fu, 6th degree black belt in Arnis Sikaran, 4th degree Black belt in Karate and ranked 5th level Black Sash under Singapore Martial Arts Federation.”

The main emphasis of the school being kung fu, or Shaolin if you wanna translate the Cantonese, you’d think he’d be more open about the heritage. I asked Mr. Lindgreen on several occasions about his teachers and he always avoided the questions. I also cannot find any reference amongst martial arts friends or institutions to the “Singapore Martial Arts Federation”. Hell, I can’t even find it on Google. I’ll try track my old certificates and see what they say too.

The karate also, should be fairly easy to trace in a country as small as mine. Alas, his lineage seems to be conveniently missing again. I have heard from an old friends parents that he trained in karate, can’t remember the style, but 4th Dan didn’t sound like it fit the description of his abilities.

I have no idea about the Filipino art reference. We did get taught some stick fighting in class, but hey, at the time I’d just lost about 20kg of “puppy fat” and was ready to believe I was invincible if I trained my horse stance ‘til it was ‘strong as a mountain’, so my judgement some years later is probably lacking.

He also claims to have won many international competitions:

“Prior to 1986, Mr Lindgreen won a total of 18 national and international titles. After a short retirement from the competition circuit, in 1996 he won Champion of Champions and 4 major events in 1997 at the CCP International Competitions in Australia.”

After reading this site I thought I might as well try gain some truth out of the matter, so I emailed the organisation, saying I was a MAist trying to find out some info on the style for a friend in Auckland. The following emails were exchanged:


Me:
“Hi there,

I got asked by a friend to ask about your school. I'm down in Wellington but she's in south Auckland. I practise a style called Wu Tao down here, which is a small school that teaches a variety of Shaolin fists as well as qigong and chen style tai chi. Could you please tell me a little about your school, your lineage, instructors and anything that might be useful and that I might be able to relate to her?

Thanks very much for your time,
Chris”

Them:
Hi Chris,

Siu Lum Gar was formed in 1989 by the clubs chief instructor Martin
Lindgreen. You'll find out about Martin & his lineage from our web site, the
senior instructor & technical advisor, Derrick Manchester has trained with &
under Martin for over 25 years, Clerk Master is a black sash instructor who
has had several world titles to his name & myself I'm the junior instructor
with a background in Chinese Boxing (Zhuan Shu Kuan) & was taught in
Aberdeen, Scotland. I've been with Siu Lum Gar near on ten years now,
practising Kickboxing/Chinese Boxing then moving on to the traditional Kung
Fu.

We are a fight based style & all our forms (empty hand & weapon) reflect
this. Again more information is available at the web site along with
training times & locations.

If you have any further questions please feel free to contact us.

For Siu Lum Gar

Chae

Me:
Thanks you very much for your reply Chae,

Are you able to tell me anything about the specific training that Mr. Lindgreen received before he started this club? I'm not trying to wheedle, I'd just like to learn a little about the history of the club's style. What style Karate did he train in and where? What Chinese 'kung fu' forms did he learn, from whom, and how has he incorporated them into Siu Lum Gar's curriculum? How did the five animals of your style come about, as it is slightly different from the '5 animals' that I'm used to?

Any information would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Chris

Them:
Chris,

Give Martin a call direct 021 542 546 I'm sure he'd be more than happy to
inform you of who & where he trained.

Best Regards

Chae

So… I’ll get round to giving him a call once finals are over, but in the meantime, what do you guys think, does anyone have any knowledge of the competitions/associations he claims to be involved with?

P.S. thanks to Jonas for his advice

OZZ
5/30/2008 7:59pm,
Most CMA instructors who are on the level are proud of their lineage and have no problem telling you who their teachers are/were. This is a red flag right off the bat...
I have no first hand knowledge of this man or the system he claims to represent, but ANY so-called 'master' who claims high ranks in more than one discipline should be viewed with suspicion.
These are just self-evident truths that you could surely discern on your own.

As for the rest, i'll let you do a bit more digging on your own and decide for yourself.
Have you introduced yourself in Newbietown?

jadezen
12/22/2008 4:07pm,
Martin Lingreen comes from the Shaolin Chuan-Fa Association - a NZ school run by Robert Gemmell, which was started in 1958. Professor Gemmell's credentials have been published by a Karate Historian in the old Insights Into Martial Arts magazine that was around a few years ago...

chinese_boxer
3/07/2009 12:15am,
The web site in question actually had a typo error on the page the Association your looking for is Singapore Martial Arts Instructors Association, you'll easily find them on Google. Also for reference Martin Lindgreens sticking fighting skills came from being taught by Chief Instructor Jose Marie "Jesse" Capili Diestro of the World Sikaran-Arnis Brotherhood. Siu Lum Gar I believe is also part of the World Sikaran-Arnis Brotherhood's international chapters.

andretheace
9/13/2009 6:47pm,
I did Siu Lim Gar in Whangarei instructed by Jason in 08.
Jason definitely seems to know what he's doing and he's got the scars to prove it. I enjoyed training with him and would seriously recommend anyone in the Northland region to give it a go. As for the matter on Martin i have only meet the guy ounce but he left a good impression on me. I do also wonder however about who Martin trained with as i haven't been able to find anything about it. I do remember however a speech he gave us at training about his Karate instructor. He told us the guy took on a bull and as it was coming at him he punched, cracked skull ect you get the picture. When the gut died he told Martin to carry on teaching. This i definitely have my doughts about and i was wondering if you guy's might know anything more on the matter?

Cheers
Andre

andretheace
9/13/2009 6:49pm,
My bad. The instructor didn't die from the bull it did. The instructor died some time later.

andretheace
9/13/2009 6:49pm,
Of old age.

Erevan
9/14/2009 2:05am,
The instructors name wasn't Masutatsu Oyama by any chance was it?

Damantis
3/13/2010 4:37pm,
The instructors name wasn't Masutatsu Oyama by any chance was it?

I trained directly under Martin for over ten years, reaching the rank of 2nd level Black Sash. His Karate Lineage was as stated above, as a studuent of Robert Gemmel, one of the pioneers of Kempo Bushido Ryu Karate, in which Martin held a 4th dan and world free sparring titles at the time. His brother, Corey, was the same rank and chose to remain with Kempo Bushido Ryu.

I joined during the transition in About 1989/90 when Martin broke away from Gemmel's organisation. The rationale for this split was his frustration not only with the politics of the organisation but the stifling of his desire to incorporate other, less Karate focused elements into the martial arts he practices. Thus, he formed Siu Lum Gar. It became more focussed on the Chuan-Fa and chinese weaponry aspects, emphasising economy of motion, circular, animal based techniques more in keeping with the "shaolin" model. Not claiming to be Genuine Shaolin kung fu, yet incorporating alot of Wu-Shu forms and principles etc and rejecting alot of the dogmatic Kempo structures and attitudes that were in essence an amalgam of Okinawan Karate, stamped with a Bushido type code. Along the way, Martin has incorporated Muay Thai stlye kickboxing ( which, while taught as a seperate class, bleeds into the kung-fu classes ) and Sikaran Arnis, under the direction of Jesse Diestro ( Who I met and trained under on a few occasions ) The stick fighting adds to and complements the empty hand system which is very street survival / self defence oriented. The style is lacking in ground fighting ability / grappling but over all offers a lot more in terms of scope and adaptability than most traditional arts I have trained in.

The school does disproportionately well in all the multi-style tournaments they both run and visit ( not that this is the only measure of an effective art! ) The syllabus is constantly under review and change, which can be both frustrating and enlightening, depending on whether you are open to change or not. Martin and his school both have their faults, but at the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding, and Martin has been there, and done that.

alex
3/13/2010 5:23pm,
never heard of this guy personally, im assuming by multi style you dont mean MMA events cos ive never seen any of his guys competing at one.

Damantis
3/13/2010 6:10pm,
Haven't been actively involved in the school for some years now. But by multi-style, I mean semi contact tournaments open to any recognised martial arts, sometimes with a full contact division, but alot more regulated than MMA. I don't know if they have entered any MMA competitions. Most of the tournaments I went to with Siu Lum Gar were run by progressive Karate / Kung fu / Tae kwon do schools etc. Most years, Siu lum Gar runs a multi stle tounament in Auckland. I suppose you could contact them for details.

The reason I left the style was a combination of family commitments and a growing discontent from being taken for granted as an instructor at the expense of my own progression etc. A lot of Martin's senior students have left over the years for this reason. As a comprehensive and effective style, I still rate it very highly.

bisaro
3/21/2010 4:09pm,
"and ranked 5th level Black Sash under Singapore Martial Arts Federation"

There is no Singapore Martial Arts Federation. There is however, a Singapore Martial Arts Instructors Association but it DOES NOT award NOR does it certify ranks so that claim above is not valid.

alex
3/21/2010 6:02pm,
Haven't been actively involved in the school for some years now. But by multi-style, I mean semi contact tournaments open to any recognised martial arts, sometimes with a full contact division, but alot more regulated than MMA. I don't know if they have entered any MMA competitions. Most of the tournaments I went to with Siu Lum Gar were run by progressive Karate / Kung fu / Tae kwon do schools etc. Most years, Siu lum Gar runs a multi stle tounament in Auckland. I suppose you could contact them for details.


in my last kickboxing match, and at every MMA match i go to (my mum would murder me if i did MMA so its kickboxing only for me) they do very extensive medical checks before/after the fight. i dont remember EVER getting this done at those open style tournament things that i did a couple of times.

when i moved to auckland i had a look into and competed in a few of these things but i found them all to have ridiculous (i.e. unrealistic) rulesets and a horrible amount of politics going on so i don't think i would want to attend one again, but i might check out this siu lim gar one and see. i still have my nam wah pai blue sash and jacket kicking around somewhere, if it still fits.

Damantis
3/21/2010 9:12pm,
"and ranked 5th level Black Sash under Singapore Martial Arts Federation"

There is no Singapore Martial Arts Federation. There is however, a Singapore Martial Arts Instructors Association but it DOES NOT award NOR does it certify ranks so that claim above is not valid.

Oh well,. that's definitely the Association he used to refer to. It was basically a trip to Singapore where Martin had his rank of 4th Dan karate-kempo equated to a rank of 5th level blask sash in his own style of kung fu by showing a group of instructors what syllabus etc he was teaching. I didn't go on this trip as I joined only shortly before it. If it's such a big deal though. maybe someone should email this association for some comment? Better still, I suppose one could walk up to Martin and call him a fraud and see what happens. ( might pay to make sure you had comprehensive medical insurance first though ) :qgreenjum

alex
3/21/2010 9:29pm,
I suppose one could walk up to Martin and call him a fraud and see what happens. ( might pay to make sure you had comprehensive medical insurance first though ) :qgreenjum

guys ability to fight is not being called into question, his credentials are.

bisaro
4/01/2010 3:00pm,
I am on the Management Council of this Association and I can assure you that the Association does not certify nor issue ranks.

But, you guys did bring up an interesting idea for me to suggest at the next Council meeting. *grin*


Oh well,. that's definitely the Association he used to refer to. It was basically a trip to Singapore where Martin had his rank of 4th Dan karate-kempo equated to a rank of 5th level blask sash in his own style of kung fu by showing a group of instructors what syllabus etc he was teaching. I didn't go on this trip as I joined only shortly before it. If it's such a big deal though. maybe someone should email this association for some comment? Better still, I suppose one could walk up to Martin and call him a fraud and see what happens. ( might pay to make sure you had comprehensive medical insurance first though ) :qgreenjum