PDA

View Full Version : Karate-A little paste on JKA/Shotokan/Shotokai



Pages : [1] 2

patfromlogan
11/17/2003 10:16am,
http://www.brunelkarate.com/ for the full article - and check the instructors belt ranks - bet I could beat him up!

In 1944 Funakoshi's students-the university clubs, the Old Boys clubs, and the private dojos all over Japan-officially organized themselves into the Nihon Karate Kyokai (Japan Karate
Association, or JKA) and named Funakoshi their chief instructor emeritus Isao Obata, the chairman, was the wealthy president of his own trading company; the first JKA president, Kichinosuku Saigo, was a wealthy politician with major political influence These men had neither the time nor the inclination to administer the affairs of such a large and burgeoning organization, and the board of directors immediately hired a full-time, paid staff to run the organization. Masatomo Takagi, a business manager and a 5th dan in karate, was hired as general secretary. Masatoshi Nakayama was made chief instructor, to conduct day-to-day training at the headquarters; Kimio Ito was appointed director of administration; and Hidetaka Nishiyama was named chief of the instruction committee.


In April 1955 the JKA opened its first commercial dojo in the preview room of the Kataoka Movie Center, and a strong campaign was launched for the recruitment of new students. Many old-line masters, chief among them Isao Obata of Keio, felt it was absolutely immoral for a man to accept money for teaching the art Even those who would not deny a man the right to be paid voiced opposition to placing karate on the market. The Hosei Old Boys were the first to leave the JKA, followed by Obata and the Keio group. Unburdened of the conserved ve Old Boys, the Takudai men pursued the development of karate in their own way; not surprisingly, in view of their training, they chose to internationalize the art.

The Tadukai group thought the best way for an art like Shotokan karate to gain international acceptance was to give it a sporting aspect Turning karate into a sport with rules for competition was not new Since 1936 college clubs had been conducting kokangeiko (exchange of courtesies and practice), in which they tested their techniques against each other on a free-style basis. Without formal rules or supervision, however, these exchange and training sessions were, more often than not, bloodbaths. The Old Boys refused to acknowledge the existence of such shenanigans because these bouts were obviously opposed to the principles of karate as Funakoshi taught them.

Nevertheless, the JKA directors and leaders in other styles brought free-sparring into the open, experimenting with it, debating it, and, finally, encouraging it. By 1950, virtually all the major styles of karate in Japan were practicing some form of free-style sparring. The JKA contest rules, comprising three chapters and 16 articles, were completed in Aug. 1956. Collegiate clubs and branch dojo immediately commenced staging tournaments to try contestant skills and to train judges. This flurry of activity culminated in the 1st All Japan Karate-do Championship Tournament in June 1957.

Concurrent with their efforts to devise a workable set of contest rules, the JKA instituted a stringent instructor training program. Only the cream of young karate men were admitted to the
program, and only after graduating honorably from college and attaining 2nd dan rank. In an intensive year of study, candidates were instructed not only in karate but in psychology, physics, anatomy, business management, history and philosophy of physical education and sports, and other subjects. On completing the training program (with 3rd dan and a dissertation) they were assigned to a year's teaching internship. The results of this difficult apprenticeship were a dozen or so highly proficient karate men, well prepared to plant and nourish their art overseas.

Technically, there are some gaps between JKA Shotokan and the Shotokai; practically, the gaps are very narrow. While most of the Shotokai groups still regularly practice the taikyoku and ten-no-kata that were so dear to Funakoshi, the JKA has abandoned them as repetitious and of questionable value. Stances among most of the Shotokai groups are generally higher than those seen in the JKA, and there is relatively little emphasis on free-style sparring in Shotokai dojo. From about 1960 forward, the JKA has pursued the study of karate from a scientific viewpoint-body mechanics, kinesiology, anatomy, physics, and modern psychology. This, contend most of the Shotokai people, is unnecessary and detrimental to the traditional ways taught by Funakoshi. Each group continues to insist that it practices karate exactly as Funakoshi would practice it were he alive today.

The present authors, based on the writings of the master, lean toward the JKA claim. Funakoshi frequently said that karate was an unfinished art; it would continue to grow and change, he said, as man's knowledge and circumstances grew and changed See also Funakoshi, Gichin; Japan Karate Association; karate-do. Further reading. The Way of Karate, Beyond Technique, Shigeru Egami, 1976; Shotokan Karate: Free-Fighting Techniques, K. Enoeda and C.J.
Mack, 1974; Karate-Do Kyohan, Gichin Funakoshi, 1973; Karate-Do, My Way of Life, Gichin Funakoshi, 1977; Karate: The Art of Empty-Hand Fighting, Hidetaka Nishiyama and Richard Brown,
1959; Shotokan Karate, Peter Ventresca, 1970; Kick Illustrated, Oct. 1981-Jan. 1982; Best Karate, H. Nakayama, 1978 (8 vols.); Black Belt Karate, Jordan Roth, 1974.

(technical material by GARY GOLDSTEIN and ALEX STERNBERG; historical material by RANDALL G HASSELL).

Zeddy
11/17/2003 11:14am,
Is it the norm to call it "karate-doh" nowadays? When I hear that I tend to think of Homer or play doh. :\

LLL
11/27/2003 5:20pm,
Pat: What was your point... They don't seem to claim to teach either Shotokan/kai... ; & where was that text you quoted on their site, or why did you quote it from elsewhere?

But I wouldn't study there, considering that their master is (apart from other things):
"7 generation lineage from the legendary Shaolin Chaun Fa Gung Fu Master Wong Fei Hung."

And, for ****'s sake, are moves like this really taught somewhere? Do you really need to train anything at all to think of even one better option...

http://www.uniservity.net/images/clubs/pages/3930/4799_15209_small.jpg

Shuma-Gorath
11/27/2003 8:34pm,
Originally posted by LLL

And, for ****'s sake, are moves like this really taught somewhere? Do you really need to train anything at all to think of even one better option...

http://www.uniservity.net/images/clubs/pages/3930/4799_15209_small.jpg

That's part of Wansu Dai, a kata. Pay no attention to it as a fighting technique, since it's meant to hit a guy in the balls as he throws a jump kick.

drunkenj
11/27/2003 8:39pm,
i say bring back inter-university bloodbaths!!!!!!!!!!

liuzg150181
11/28/2003 3:46am,
Originally posted by LLL
Pat: What was your point... They don't seem to claim to teach either Shotokan/kai... ; & where was that text you quoted on their site, or why did you quote it from elsewhere?

But I wouldn't study there, considering that their master is (apart from other things):
"7 generation lineage from the legendary Shaolin Chaun Fa Gung Fu Master Wong Fei Hung."

And, for ****'s sake, are moves like this really taught somewhere? Do you really need to train anything at all to think of even one better option...

http://www.uniservity.net/images/clubs/pages/3930/4799_15209_small.jpg
For one thing,Wong Fei Hung is a Hung Gar master,not shaolin kung fu(unless u consider Hung Gar to be Shaolin).Also,Wong Fei Hung lived until 1930s and being "7 generation lineage from the legendary Shaolin Chaun Fa Gung Fu Master Wong Fei Hung." is too far-fetched~~~

patfromlogan
11/28/2003 10:33am,
Originally posted by LLL
Pat: What was your point... They don't seem to claim to teach either Shotokan/kai... ; & where was that text you quoted on their site, or why did you quote it from elsewhere?

But I wouldn't study there, considering that their master is (apart from other things):
"7 generation lineage from the legendary Shaolin Chaun Fa Gung Fu Master Wong Fei Hung."

And, for ****'s sake, are moves like this really taught somewhere? Do you really need to train anything at all to think of even one better option...

http://www.uniservity.net/images/clubs/pages/3930/4799_15209_small.jpg

The POINT is that this is a history forum. The paste came (sirprise surprise serprize) from the history link on the left side of the web page. If you don't see the point in learning ma history then WTF are you doing?


And please don't take one move from a kata and dismiss a style. Just like still pictures of fighters look off balance and people always say dumb things like "He's open, why didn't the guy hit him with X technique?" When, if you watch the action, rather than a still picture, you'd see the consecutive movements and why they made sense. Like the picture of Andy Hug doing an axe kick. Gee man, that won't really work, all the other guy has to kick him in the nads, dude.

And I dunno, I like practicing kicks from the ground myself and (not to brag...) they are pretty effective. I used to watch the Aikido guys in Kaimuki and have tried to adopt their technique; they keep fighting in midair, midthrow, and on the ground. Sometimes sparring someone thinks that they are going to score or have a big advantage when they throw me but I sometimes can side kick 'em or leg sweep, or sizzor take down, as I land. As my ex-grandfather in law said (he was 89) he watched a nword fight a white guy and the white guy had a blade and the nword got on his back and kept spinning and kicking and never got cut. It also brings to mind an Am. Kempo instructor who was very small and he'd fight from the ground a lot, doing sweeps and kicks, he was hard to hit; told me he'd had to test against a couple 6'3" guys to get his belt and learned small man techniques. He'd use traps to try and bring you down when attacked, also. Though a karate/kempo dude, he knew, like BJJers know, that on the ground a smaller person gains relative advantage.

Ronin
11/28/2003 10:38am,
I liked the part about how the JKA branched out to study how physics and bio mechanice and kinesiology and anatomy relate to Karate. In his book "dynamic Karate" Nakayama mentions the same thing.
How much do you think THAT changed karate ( shotokan) ?

X_plosion
11/28/2003 11:40am,
"How much do you think THAT changed karate ( shotokan) ?"

Hi! I'm new here. Here'ss my two cent's worth on the question:

1. The teaching methodology was something Westerners could relate to. This could have influenced the US Air Force's Strategic Air Command to choose the JKA as its official Karate instructors.

2. By virtue of of its using Western Scientific Methods, the methodology increased worldwide prestige for the already successful JKA.

3. Perhaps it could explain the unique characteristics that JKA style Shotokan has (e.g. Mechanical Basics, precise standards for performance, etc.)

4. It gave a standard syllabus that all affiliate schools could base their lessons on. Some of the senior teachers had different ways of interpreting posture, power generation, etc, while still adhering to the "core teachings" set by Nakayama et al.

Just my take on the matter.

Ronin
11/28/2003 11:50am,
I was refering to the technical aspects of shotokan, should have been specific.
I know that the one shot, one kill, theory did NOT change.
The way the reverse punch was thrown slightly changed.

LLL
11/29/2003 10:08am,
Originally posted by patfromlogan
The POINT is that this is a history forum. The paste came (sirprise surprise serprize) from the history link on the left side of the web page. If you don't see the point in learning ma history then WTF are you doing?


And please don't take one move from a kata and dismiss a style. Just like still pictures of fighters look off balance and people always say dumb things like "He's open, why didn't the guy hit him with X technique?" When, if you watch the action, rather than a still picture, you'd see the consecutive movements and why they made sense. Like the picture of Andy Hug doing an axe kick. Gee man, that won't really work, all the other guy has to kick him in the nads, dude.


Hey hey, don't get mad, I wasn't aiming to be insulting, although I somehow often manage to appear like that, at least by judging from the reactions....

You could have linked directly to the history page, of course.

AND I was definitely not dismissing an entire style, actually a couple of weeks ago I was checking out a Shotokai class and they seemed quite OK. I was talking about that one move in the picture.

But I don't know katas as I'm not a karateka, so I only saw that pic which they have put in their site for some reason. & I still think it looks like ****.

I'm sure some really great master might once in 200 years hurt someone with that, but that doesn't make it good...

Of course, if you were referring to my comments about that school, the Wong Fei Hong reference is absolutely ridiculous...

patfromlogan
11/29/2003 12:49pm,
OK LLL, I'm calm now, and I need to be to send my chi blast over the internet! Wham! Did you feel that? Wham Wham Wham! OK OK, now that you're hurting, I'm going back to attacking Omega...

Did you get a chance to look at video clip of Andy Hug's K1 fights where he spin heel kicks the opponents' legs and drops the poor suckers? OUCH! Who was it that said spin techniques don't work? (yah, that is offtopic, but what a hit!)

Warrior
4/27/2005 9:07am,
I wouldn't be too quick to judge these guys Pat, I have checked out a lot of martial art schools in my time and looking at the teachers this school seems to be associated with, they are all authentic and well known martial art masters. Look at the links they have http://www.uniservity.net/clubs_RenderPage.asp?clubid=3930&pageid=5184 .. Plus I dont think they claim to be a Shotokai/kan school cant seem to find it anywhere, judging from what I see they appear to be more Goju-Ryu?

Zeddy - you must be new to the art, Karate in its simplest terms, can be thought of as a system of self-defense which relies mainly on the use of the unarmed body for protection (blocking, punching, striking, and kicking helps with development of physical strength, coordination and agility. but it must not be thought of as just a system of techniques or a discipline of physical exercises. In its true sense Karate should be seen as Karate-doh. Doh - Meaning the way Karate-doh the way of the empty hand.. just like Dojo meaning "Way place"

It is through Karate-Doh that the individual really begins to understand himself and his capacities it is a higher level of understanding. Perfection of techniques through patient effort provides physical and emotional development.

LLL and liuzg150181 I did a bit of research into the Shaolin claim and it is actually true... I think they are suggesting that there lineage originally started with Shaolin. iuzg150181 I couldnt find the 7 generation claim?

Here is the lineage:
Gee Sin Sim (Honan Shaolin Monk)

Hung Hei Goon

Luk Ah Choy

Wong Tai
(Wong Kay Ying's Father)

Wong Kay Ying
(Wong Fei Hung's Father)

Wong Fei Hung
(Master of Hung Gar Kune)

Lam Sai Wing
(Student of Wong Fei Hung + Hung Gar Kune)

Li Sai Wing

Chong Oi Mun

Ron Yamanaka


liuzg150181 about the kick, you would be suprised where a move like that can surface, it may look useless but sometimes what a move looks like can be completely different from its application.. lots of move are hidden in kata!
who have u guys been training with??
Dont think you should judge a book by its cover..

DARK WARRIOR

Zeddy
4/27/2005 10:13am,
I'll just start off by saying "Hello from two years ago".


Zeddy - you must be new to the art

Not exactly. I trained in a traditional goju ryu school for around eight years. To be more accurate, I was bitching about the non existent standard for romanisation of Japanese. Must have been a bad night.

I'm curious, are you related in any way to that place?

Jolly_Roger
4/28/2005 12:09am,
I was refering to the technical aspects of shotokan, should have been specific.
I know that the one shot, one kill, theory did NOT change.
The way the reverse punch was thrown slightly changed.

I think that the range of fighting went from short to medium. I trained several years in shotokan, and then some years in shotokai and shito-ryu. JKA Shotokan people used to square of farther, and most of the techniques were long and medium range punches and kicks. Shotokai, and specially shito-ryu, emphasized much more close range application of the same kata, using more of a jujutsu flavor (especially noticiable in the shito-ryu), with a greater emphasis on trips, takedowns and flowing punches (in shito-ryu, the gedan-barai was explained to me as a part of a takedown, instead of a block). The JKA shotokan people used a kind of "cannon style" because their punches were heavier and more long range, and the shito-ryu used a more jujutsu style.

liuzg150181
4/28/2005 12:47am,
LLL and liuzg150181 I did a bit of research into the Shaolin claim and it is actually true... I think they are suggesting that there lineage originally started with Shaolin. iuzg150181 I couldnt find the 7 generation claim?
If u do can u recite the poems that denotes the Shaolin generation?
I know the poem,and it is time to show u do.
And since i am ethnic Chinese,i can even type out the Chinese version of it.
And which books u referring? I even read the Shaolin Encyclopedia published in China~~~


Here is the lineage:
Gee Sin Sim (Honan Shaolin Monk)

Hung Hei Goon
For ur info Gee Sin Sim and Hung Hei Goon is related to the so-called Southern Shaolin temple,whose history is quite obscure~~~
And i bet you cant tell btw Cantonese and Mandarin~~~


Luk Ah Choy

Wong Tai
(Wong Kay Ying's Father)

Wong Kay Ying
(Wong Fei Hung's Father)

Wong Fei Hung
(Master of Hung Gar Kune)

Lam Sai Wing
(Student of Wong Fei Hung + Hung Gar Kune)

Li Sai Wing

Chong Oi Mun

Ron Yamanaka
U for ur info,the lineage of the Shaolin(Henan) temple is now something like 30+ generation.And yes,u can deduct his generation 'rank' from his/her Chinese character of the Buddhist name~~~



liuzg150181 about the kick, you would be suprised where a move like that can surface, it may look useless but sometimes what a move looks like can be completely different from its application.. lots of move are hidden in kata!
who have u guys been training with??
Dont think you should judge a book by its cover..

DARK WARRIOR
Go for an eye checkup,i am NOT the one who doubted it,dumbass~~~ :icon_geek ek