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Gopu
3/30/2008 1:19pm,
Is it just for ammo conservation? Because it seems like it would be rather inaccurate. Can anyone with real experience clarify this?

vigilus
3/30/2008 2:44pm,
3:26 minutes into this clip (to about 3:46) you see soldiers firing an AR15 on full auto from the standing position doing a good job of accurate fire (IMO).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4p-kaEMWAU

I've been told (open to country vs country **** talk inaccuracy) that the US changed the M16 during the vietnam era from full auto to a 3 round burst fire because soldiers wouldn't control their rate of fire and just open up. I'm inclined to believe this considering drafting and people who didn't want to be there.

When you say burst fire yout talking about 3 to 5 round bursts right? Current US weapons don't have burst fire mode, it's semi auto and full auto. If you see someone using burst fire then it's probably them trying to save ammo. (Well not so much save ammo as not waste ammo).
You would probably also see someone using burst fire in an indoor setting or especially an ambush.

Phoenix
3/30/2008 3:12pm,
When I was in recruit training, one of our instructors was telling us that 3 shot bursts were good for close quarters engagements, or when a suspect is charging towards you (I think he said 'rapidly closing the reactionary gap' or some artsy fartsy bullshit).

The Failure Drill (AKA Mozambique Drill or 'Double Tap') is a good example.

7thSamurai
3/30/2008 4:28pm,
3:26 minutes into this clip (to about 3:46) you see soldiers firing an AR15 on full auto from the standing position doing a good job of accurate fire (IMO).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4p-kaEMWAU

I've been told (open to country vs country **** talk inaccuracy) that the US changed the M16 during the vietnam era from full auto to a 3 round burst fire because soldiers wouldn't control their rate of fire and just open up. I'm inclined to believe this considering drafting and people who didn't want to be there.

When you say burst fire yout talking about 3 to 5 round bursts right? Current US weapons don't have burst fire mode, it's semi auto and full auto. If you see someone using burst fire then it's probably them trying to save ammo. (Well not so much save ammo as not waste ammo).
You would probably also see someone using burst fire in an indoor setting or especially an ambush.

Which weapons are you referring to, Spark? I know the M16A2 has a burst mode. I know that the belt feed machine guns are auto, but I'm pretty sure.

On a lot of the old Viet Nam era war footage, you can see soldiers spraying a full magazine over the top of the berm/barrier without having any sort of controlled fire. I have heard the same story about the rifle being converted to 3 round burst to control this problem with the troops. I haven't been able to find any literature on it. I'll ask some of my old vet friends and see if they have any comments. My gunsmith is a grunt from that period. Maybe he'll have some insight.

Gopu
3/30/2008 4:31pm,
I was referring to the option on the firing selector. I was under the impression the M16s currently being used by the US still have this.

I understand it's probably good at close range but it seems like it would be too hard to control in any other situation.

Gopu
3/30/2008 4:46pm,
Oh, and those are either C7s or C8s in the video, the Canadian version of the M16 and M4. I didn't really notice which. That's actually the gun I was thinking of when I made this topic. The Canadian version doesn't have burst fire but the American version does (or so I thought/think).

vigilus
3/30/2008 5:38pm,
Samurai, I was under the impression that the US armed forces did away with the 3 round (vietnam era) burst option on their M16s in favor of semi and auto.

Gopu I'm pretty sure americans don't have burst anymore but someone who knows is bound to chime in. I thought the M16A2 had full auto.

It is good at close range and you naturally wouldn't want to use it for long range engagements.

7thSamurai
3/30/2008 5:53pm,
Hey, Spark.

I think it's backwards. I can recall the function check of the M16 as incorporating a test for the ability of the 3 rds.

Also, from Wiki:

"The U.S. no longer issues fully-automatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_fire) M16-style rifles throughout the Services."

"Most M16 and M4-style weapons issued are capable of semi-automatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_firearm) fire and 3-round burst. The burst-fire mechanism utilizes a three-part automatic sear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sear_%28firearm%29) that fires up to three rounds for each pull of the trigger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_%28firearms%29). It is non-resetting, meaning that if the user fires a two-round burst and releases the trigger, he will encounter a single round fired the next burst. In theory, burst-fire mechanisms allow ammunition conservation for troops with limited training and combat experience."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

I've heard research is being done on a new rifle, but it seems like most everything that comes forward doesn't get budgeting.

vigilus
3/30/2008 6:04pm,
Wow I can't believe they still use the 3 round burst. I'm as wrong as a two headed dog on this one I guess :)

Lord Skeletor
3/30/2008 7:00pm,
Burst fire and fully automatic fire are actually quite accurate---it all depends upon your distance and your shooter. If you're just thinking of just spraying an entire 30 round magazine at a moving target at 300 yards---yeah, you might be reaching a bit for some accuracy and good hits. However---if you have a trained shooter and the distance isn't "pushing it" for an assault gun---they can be quite accurate. Check this 100-round dump from an MP5-N from about 7 yards. All shots go into the X---through the same hole. This can easily be duplicated with an M4. However...back up to 75--100--200 yards, you'll still get hits (if your shooter is good)---but a lot more misses. Again...it's all relative.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2015975463949291031&q=MP5N&total=12&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=5

Flail_Crapple
3/30/2008 7:02pm,
http://www.colt.com/mil/M16_2.asp

http://www.colt.com/mil/M4_2.asp

Colts official website lists the M16A4 and M4 as both being full auto capable. I think the 3 round burst was just the M16A2 that was replaced by these.

SFGOON
3/30/2008 7:08pm,
Morans.

The M-16 and it's variants use a three round burst. M-4 carbines have a full auto option, no burst.

Any sort of automatic fire is beneficial in three scenarios:

1. You're trying to scare the **** out of the enemy by flinging so much ammo in his general direction that he's too scared to pop his head up. This is called "suppression."

2. You're trying to kill a lot of idiots from fairly far away and don't want them to be able to return effective fire. Crew served weapons, the M-60 and M-240 variants, are best for this.

3. You're fighting from 1-3 meters/yards and you want to shoot them to death as quickly as possible.

The M-4 is suited for the last task. The M-16, none. What burst fire and auto will do, however, is make the novice soldier brave enough to stand his ground.

Cassius
3/30/2008 9:29pm,
M-16 A1 and A3 are full auto, so is the M4A1. M4, M-16 A2 and A4 are 3 round burst. Don't think the M-16 A1 is still floating around anymore, but the rest are. Not sure about the FN SCAR MK 16, which I believe SOCOM is adopting. Probably full auto, since it's supposed to replace the M4A1.

bushi_no_ki
3/30/2008 11:27pm,
As for the purpose of burst mode, I still don't know the answer to that. I never use burst, unless it's to get rid of extra ammo. I use controlled pairs, I don't need the weapon to fire automatically for me.

vigilus
3/31/2008 6:00am,
I don't need the weapon to fire automatically for me.
Combat Engineer right?

Four man recce team on patrol for us is where we might use it.
Lead man comes into contact with a much bigger enemy force. Lead man throws his rifle on automatic fires off 30 rounds into the poor sucker from the other team and friends then turns around and runs away down the center as the second mand is putting his weapon on automatic and doing the same.
He's empty and running past the 3rd man who's opening up with his 30 rounds spraying the enemy keeping their heads down and passes the 4th man runnin back to the RV. th man either throws a grenade or fires off 30 rounds.
Dependong on the terrain the lead guy can stop somewhere and open up with another 30 round mag as the 4th guy passes him carried on by the rest of the patrol.
Auto is great for breakinging contact drils.
(Like SFGOON's example #1)

Phoenix
3/31/2008 7:04am,
Morans.

hehe....