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ZenOfAnger
3/22/2008 9:31pm,
I was wondering if anybody in the St. Louis area on this site has heard, is, or once was part of my TKD org :
Moo Sul Kwan

Here is a link to the website : http://moosulkwan.com/
We don't have any vids on youtube as far as I know.


There are also MSK schools in Cape Girardeau, Mo, Clolrado, and Florida, and was wondering if anybody on this site has heard of us. We are part of the WTF and teach both WTF and ITF forms.

Within my school org. I have heard rumors, though most likely true, that our Florida school is kinda McDojo-ish (similar to the ATA) and the Colo. one focuses more on WTF sparring. I have never been to any of those schools so I can't say anything bad about them, but hopefully they are just rumors. Here in Missouri, It's more of the TMA approach to teaching.

I would appreciate it if anybody on here that has gone, or heard of one of our schools would post here, and was just wondering what you think about us. I am open to criticism and am willing to hear if you think we suck, and why, and will do my best to be non-bias when I talk about my school.

Hex
3/22/2008 9:40pm,
I live in the Kansas City area. The name sounds familiar but I don't know anything about your kwan.

Out of curiosity, what does your Hapkido training consist of? Is is TKD striking and forms with some HKD hoshinsul thrown in?

ZenOfAnger
3/22/2008 9:50pm,
Well I just started in HKD and judo, but so far the HKD srtiking (especially the kicking) is quite different from the TKD I learned; More hip and swing in HKD and less Knee generated power. We don't do any forms in HKD. I only know of a few staff forms, but I don't think they are part of the HKD curriculm.

Please read the following:

I enjoy my TKD school, but it tends to lack in any type of aliveness besides WTF sparring and light contact point sparring (ewwww i know). The focus tends to be on one steps, forms, proper kicking and speed, moves across the room, etc. I have been doing TKD for about 6 1/2 years and will test for black most likely near the end of the summer. My instructor is a 5th dan TKD, 2nd dan HKD( im not sure on this one) and does escrima and fencing on the side.

Our HKD is very painful (lots of wrist locks and throws), but there is no sparring in it, that is contributed to the "it is too dangerous to use in sparring" theory that is in use. We do tons of wrist locks and falling, lots of throws, very limited ground work/clinch/grappeling, and weapons to an extent. My Instructor here is a 7th dan TKD and 5th dan HKD and just recently got a BB in judo.

Also, Judo classes are now being taught, and I must say that it is the class I enjoy the most, even though it's only one day a week. So far the teacher is focusing the classes on setting for throws, proper off-balancing and falling. After white belt, the focus will move to randori and learning to fully apply what we have learned to complement other martial arts we know, and for self-defense in a more alive manner than in the TKD and HKD classes. My Instructor for this class is 2nd dan, but has won 20 + tournaments in his Marines division, so knows what works and what doesn't. He is also a blue in TKD, and doesn't really do it for the sparring, but for the ITF forms which he loves; he has two very bad knees ( has to wear braces on them) and the forms help with his physical therepy.

Hope that helps.

Hex
3/22/2008 9:58pm,
Hmm, sounds like you should stick with the Judo and maybe scrap the rest. :icon_wink (I've been taking Judo for about a month now, and it's a lot of fun.)

You should spar in HKD, even if it's just striking. (Obviously, the same could be said about the TKD.)

If you're learning different ways to kick in your TKD class versus the HKD classes, then it sounds like it would get confusing after a while.

I am often skeptical of people that have black belts in both TKD and HKD. I always wonder how much HKD they've actually done to get those belts.

ZenOfAnger
3/22/2008 10:26pm,
You should spar in HKD, even if it's just striking. (Obviously, the same could be said about the TKD.)

I really would like to. Do have any info about where in stl there is a HKD club like this?




If you're learning different ways to kick in your TKD class versus the HKD classes, then it sounds like it would get confusing after a while.

It does get confusing at times, but I think the reason behind this is so that you learn different styles of kicking in order to fit your personal style.




I am often skeptical of people that have black belts in both TKD and HKD. I always wonder how much HKD they've actually done to get those belts.

At our school, becoming a BB in TKD is very different from being a BB in HKD.
Usually, A bb in TKD is around orange in HKD. I's takes longer to learn HKD since there are tons of techniques that are taught compared to TKD.

The ones who are BB in TKD and HKD have been with the school 15+ years.
We treat each art seperately, so your rank in TKD doesn't carry over to HKD class.
Also, we require that you be over 15 to do HKD.

Hex
3/22/2008 10:36pm,
I really would like to. Do have any info about where in stl there is a HKD club like this?

Sorry, I don't know anything about HKD schools in St. Louis. My school is under the USKMAF, and we're the only Missouri school that I know of.



At our school, becoming a BB in TKD is very different from being a BB in HKD.
Usually, A bb in TKD is around orange in HKD. I's takes longer to learn HKD since there are tons of techniques that are taught compared to TKD.

The ones who are BB in TKD and HKD have been with the school 15+ years.
We treat each art seperately, so your rank in TKD doesn't carry over to HKD class.
Also, we require that you be over 15 to do HKD.

This doesn't sound as bad as it could be (with the exception of no sparring.) I have heard of schools that automatically award HKD black belts along with the TKD ones even though they might have only spent the last 10-15 minutes of each class session doing "Hapkido."

ZenOfAnger
3/22/2008 11:00pm,
This doesn't sound as bad as it could be (with the exception of no sparring.) I have heard of schools that automatically award HKD black belts along with the TKD ones even though they might have only spent the last 10-15 minutes of each class session doing "Hapkido."

Agreed. I have heard of quite a few TKD schools that do "self-defense" techniques for a few minutes of class that have moves derived from HKD, and then award "honorary" belts in HKD this way. Our TKD classes do have techniques derived from HKD for self-defense, but the difference is that we don't give out belts for it. It's treated as part of the TKD ciriculum.
To actually recieve rank in HKD, you must attened a HKD class then test for a belt, as it should be.

gamma man
5/28/2008 11:15pm,
I am often skeptical of people that have black belts in both TKD and HKD. I always wonder how much HKD they've actually done to get those belts.

I agree with you 100% ( even thought I happen to have black belts in both:new_llyin ) - however they were done at different times in different clubs under different instructors/organisations.

Because of the often problems noted, I personally would very be very wary of trainng in a place that claims to teach BOTH TKD and HKD.
In my expereince either one (although usually is Hapkido) will not get the attention it deserves!

In the past when I used to have a foot in both camps I was endlessly explaining to TKD people that Hapkido is not just "advanced TKD" or "TKD self-defence" etc etc.

ZenOfAnger
5/29/2008 10:56pm,
I agree with you 100% ( even thought I happen to have black belts in both:new_llyin ) - however they were done at different times in different clubs under different instructors/organisations.

Because of the often problems noted, I personally would very be very wary of trainng in a place that claims to teach BOTH TKD and HKD.
In my expereince either one (although usually is Hapkido) will not get the attention it deserves!

In the past when I used to have a foot in both camps I was endlessly explaining to TKD people that Hapkido is not just "advanced TKD" or "TKD self-defence" etc etc.

I thank you for your concern, but here on bullshido, there is this thing we call thread necromancy, and is looked down upon.
That is, you post on a old thread such as this, so just keep that in mind.


Soooo anyways,

Yes, the whole idea of HKD as being just an "extension", or as you put it an "advanced" form, of TKD is a rather weird one to me.

That's as if I had trained in karate and got my BB in it, then getting a judo or jiujitsu BB at the same time just because one day a week my Karate class did basic falling drills and beginner throws.

gamma man
6/01/2008 6:33pm,
I thought a forum was for free exchange of information?
didnt realise bullshido had different "rules" to every other forum - sorry for contrubuting
i will pmfhi

ZenOfAnger
6/01/2008 6:41pm,
I thought a forum was for free exchange of information?
didnt realise bullshido had different "rules" to every other forum - sorry for contrubuting
i will pmfhi

No, it's ok,
but if a thread has not been posted in for a couple months, it's considered a "dead" thread.

To post in one of these is considered "necromancy", because you bring it back to life, which is alright as long as you have a valid reason of doing so, , and not just to make a silly remark, or to restate what has already been touched on in the thread.

T, Mr.
3/14/2014 2:44pm,
He is a link of “Grandmaster” Charles Hildebrand, 6th degree in Hapkido and 8th degree in Taekwondo, doing a demonstration in Jackson, Mississippi. “Grandmaster” Hildebrand is the head of the Moo Sul Kwan organization.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmyD-o1z95E

It sucks.

Zen and Karate
3/25/2014 5:09pm,
Woooow!
#1 Needs to tech students how to breakfall
#2 A real gunman would have shot him dead.
#3 I really would like to fight this idiot. If this is what his demo is like, the other techniques have to be garbage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

T, Mr.
4/19/2014 10:45am,
What is really upsetting is that the so-called Grandmaster Charles Hildebrand and the Moo Sul Kwan organization are teaching people this BS as real martial arts and self defense. They are like a weed in Southeast Missouri because they have like a dozen schools across a few cities. In the Hapkido program, 7 of the 25 clothing grab techniques were from a belt grab. Completely unrealistic! The stupidest Moo Sul Kwan self-defense technique would have to be the one from a rear double shoulder grab. I think it was clothing technique #25, the very last one. You had to do three strikes before throwing the guy. Who would just stand there and get hit three times then thrown? For the non-MSK people, the lucky ones, this techniques begins with a guy grabbing both of your shoulders, well actually gi, from the rear you begin by striking his left ribs with a left knifehand and repositioning your left arm between his arms then striking the inner side of his forearm with a left hammerfist. Then trapping his right hand with your left hand then striking his right ribs with a right knifehand, FINALLY you throw the guy via a seoi-nage shoulder throw. What is worst is that none of the strikes flow together and they don’t inflict significant pain or damage. Again, who is going to stand there and get hit THREE times then thrown? No one would!

Bruce W. Sims
1/12/2015 11:14am,
I'm a bit at a loss as I don't know of a MU SOOL KWAN TKD. The MU SOOL KWAN I know of is a Hapkido style brought to Missouri years ago by the late Lee H. Park to Southeast Missouri State. At the time a number of folks were looking to spread Hapkido arts around the US including KIMM He-Young and my own teacher, MYUNG Kwang Sik.

The last person I knew to be affiliated with MUSOOL KWAN in the Midwest was Mr. Jeff Forby. Not sure if he is still with the organization. The only other person of note in something called MU SOOL KWAN is a well-regarded teacher out in the Atlanta area.

Ya know....not to offend....but people sorta bounce around and place fast and loose with these affiliations and memberships. In the Chicago area, I used to know a number of people who were fervent followers of Myung KJN. Now he's dead and suddenly the YON MU KWAN traditions are in the toilet. I stopped by one school to see what they had done with the material they were taught. Couldn't believe what I was seeing. I mention this only because being a school where people teach a solid curriculum to folks who are passionate about their training is becoming a thing of the past. The big thing now is to provide the suggestion that one is learning a solid MA while cutting corners to keep the folks coming back. Personally, I think some ball teams train harder and more regularly than a lot of Hapkido schools do. Just sayin.....

Best Wishes,

Bruce

T, Mr.
1/18/2015 1:53am,
This Moo Sul Kwan, has schools in Cape Girardeau MO, Jackson MO, Sikeston MO, Fruitland MO and a few schools in Colorado. They teach a mix of Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido and Judo. Some schools just teach TKD, some TKD and Hapkido and some teach all three. “Grandmaster” Charles Hildebrand is the president/head of Moo Sul Kwan and this is the organization that Jeff Forby began with. I do not know all the details but Forby had a fallinmg out with the main/bigger Moo Sul Kwan organization and he created the United States Moo Sul Kwan Association or whatever he calls his organization.