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Punisher
11/15/2003 12:41pm,
For the next two months my school is focusing on defenses for 6 attacks, one of which is a takedown attempt.

I'm not an experienced grappler, never claimed to be, and I would like some tips on how I can give my partner the courtesey of a attack worth defending against.

We're basically a karate school, we call the attack a "tackle" for Christ's sake. Very few people seem to know what the hell they are doing. Some just people bend at the waist, put their head down, spread their arms out, and walk forward. I at least make a honest attempt to put the other person on their back.

What are some of the things a I should and shouldn't do when trying to execute a basic shoot like a double-leg?

deus ex machina
11/15/2003 12:53pm,
Keep your head up. When you're actually trying to enter, don't bend over. Just change your levels while keeping your back straight.

Deadpan Scientist
11/15/2003 2:33pm,
Originally posted by deus ex machina
don't bend over.

:eek:
http://people.brandeis.edu/~timcraig/hellfreezeover.bmp

9chambers
11/15/2003 3:17pm,
I have saved some of my old posts so I don't have to type them all over again. This is
from an old McDojo thread on shooting that is not back up yet. It should help or at
least get some conversation started:

----------------

Let me review for some of you what a penetration step and shoot is ::

The wrestler takes a crouched stance with his arms out in front like a boxer only he is hunched down low. His weight is on the balls of his feet and not his heels. His legs are set kind of like a runner waiting for the starters pistol. At the right moment (maybe after a simple feign, a slap or tangling with your arms up top, getting wrist or elbow control) his waist drops and he does this:

Penetration step:

Without curling up or shifting his weight back first (that would telegraph the shoot) he lifts his front foot, pushes off of his back foot and takes a big step forward. He keeps his back straight and his head and shoulders remain up - he doesn't dive down, he can still see you.

His high shoulders shield his head from the sides and he keeps his hands up in front of his face. His chest is over his front leg during the step.

Shooting:

He takes a big low step and lands on his foot - not his knee. His back leg slides along after him so he can take another step with that leg if his first knee does go to the mat - he is never really extended in an awkward stance.

During the shoot, his weight is suspended there over his shooting leg and his back leg is soon sliding forward so he is not extended ahead of his legs.

It isn't a dive or a football tackle. He is still facing you. He grabs your leg at the knee or ankle. If you don't sprawl back with your legs or resist the grab then he may go for the double-leg takedown or throw his shoulder into your hip and drive you to the mat.

- - -

Do you practice against wrestlers or just guys from your dojo trying to tackle you? Its not the same. The shoot is the exact opposite of a tackle.

On a tackle your back is hunched over and your weight is in your upper body. On a wrestling shoot your back is straight or arched and your weight is low and in your hips. Did you read the description above?

For the fireman's carry in wrestling they use an arm. When someone is shooting they are way to low for you to reach down and under the leg if you have the arm. There is about a half a foot to a foot between their butt and the ground as they shoot forward.

You are saying grab the shirt and fall back so you can reach down under the leg? ...

That might work if he is shooting really high. When most wrestlers shoot, their head is about as high off the ground as your waist. I don't see what you mean about a fireman's carry there. I am interested in how you are doing this. I'm not dismissing it, just asking for clarification.

How are you getting your hip under his when his are lower than your knee? I don't think I am reading you right. It sucks trying to do this online.

I don't see you getting leverage for a throw that involves any hook under the crotch. His stance is too wide while he is shooting and all his weight is over the part you are trying to hoist. He could just take his weight off his legs and let himself drop and sit on your arm. He'd land on top of you.

If a wrestler's hips aren't lower than yours he just isn't going to shoot. Also, his hands are out in front of him to push on your arm going between his legs. In fact that is just about where his arm is hanging during the shoot. He is trying to wrap your leg, not your waist.

I have used low kicks to the knee or shin to keep guys that low from shooting in during practice - but you can't pivot the kicks in there - or the guy will just stop his shoot on a dime. Its easy, he simply lets his front foot land early. His arms are ahead of his leg (on either side) so its easy to shield yourself from a round kick. Then he'll shoot at you when your legs are facing at a 90 degree angle to him. You can't evade him in that scenario. (side guard)

HAPKO3
11/15/2003 3:19pm,
FInd an ex highschool or college wrestler, and have him take an hour to show you how to do an approximation of a proper shoot. It's not very intuative - I still can't do it right. You won't learn it over the 'net.

PizDoff
11/15/2003 3:49pm,
Heh, sometimes I picked up here and as well I found to be useful.

1. Rush in on angle. Centreline theory here: it is easier to sprawl when you come head on.
(OMG that was so wrong!)

I mean.....I found shooting in on an angle if I fail the double leg then I can go for single.


2. If you have your arms around a leg jerk up and try to powerlift the guy into the air.
This is while your momentum is going forward so you get the takedown. I've found the attempt at lifting gives a higher chance to drop them on their head (but higher risk of guillotine choke.) I use it more to pick girls up and run around with them.

Punisher
11/15/2003 8:43pm,
"FInd an ex highschool or college wrestler, and have him take an hour to show you how to do an approximation of a proper shoot. It's not very intuative - I still can't do it right. You won't learn it over the 'net."

You might remember, my sister was an accomplished wrestler in highschool. She showed me some stuff, but like you I never really got it right. I was able to take a couple of guys down today in class, but failed more times than I succeeded.

HAPKO3
11/15/2003 9:22pm,
Punisher: One thing that I have a lot of trouble with is keeping up the forward momentum ***through*** the person. I'm used to controlled attacks, where you go forward but up to a point. When shooting, you basically drive forward and never stop untill you have the guy down, or are driven into the ground with a sprawl.

I'm still trying to figure shoots out properly.

Generally, though, I go for upper body takedowns from the clinch - I'm a lot better at those.

thebgbb
11/15/2003 10:10pm,
Here is a link to a video clip of a good double leg takedown:

http://www.lesgutches.com/real/double.rm

Here is a link to a walk-through of that clip:

http://www.lesgutches.com/techniques/double.htm

Key points are:
1. Change your level by squatting and stepping in, not by bending over.
2. Bring your body to the legs instead of reaching for the legs (My coach use to show us this technique without grabbing the legs, but just shooting in and lifting the opponent with his shoulder. The grab should only be for control during and after the lift, not for the lift itself.).
3. Keep your head up and your back straight while shooting.
4. Bring the back leg through and post it behind their leg. This will allow you to use your legs to lift instead of your back.

Hope this is helpful

9chambers
11/15/2003 11:41pm,
http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/animation1.gif

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/pictures.html

Budd
11/15/2003 11:43pm,
The only thing I didn't like about the video is that the shooter lifts up slightly on the hands/arms of his opponent on his way into the shot. In a real situation, doing this can make the opponent push down and get them in a better position to sprawl on your shot. If you're going into a shot from a clinch, yank down quickly on your opponent's head/arms and shoot in as they pull back. If done correctly, this can give you a better opening.

There's an exercise you can practice that will improve your shooting ability. Ask some wrestlers to show it to you, but it basically involves taking the repeated deep steps (I've seen it done so that it goes all the way to the knee, but also just taking the deep steps) you need to be able to perform quickly with balance and power to successfully shoot. Incorporate this exercise into your conditioning (keeping good posture) and you will find that your ability to shoot will improve greatly.

9chambers
11/15/2003 11:49pm,
There are more pictures here:

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtech.html

It's not the best web page. The best I could find tonight though.

Budd
11/15/2003 11:57pm,
Originally posted by 9chambers
There are more pictures here:

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtech.html

It's not the best web page. The best I could find tonight though.


It's not bad, though. That penetration step that the shooter takes, where his knee gets low, but his back remains straight, that's the step exercise I was mentioning in my previous post. I'd recommend getting a wrestler to show you just that step. Then if you practice taking that step alternating each leg in continuous steps, work that into your training routine, you'll definitely increase your ability to shoot.

MMA_Phil
11/17/2003 5:45am,
ANYBODY WHOM WANTS TO LEARN HOW TO SHOOT STUDY THIS LINK:
http://leicestershooters.tripod.com/training/legtacklesdetails.html

Okay I was going to write quite a bit, but only because I thought that this wasn't on the net anymore.

mikus
11/17/2003 5:58pm,
Sorry it's off topic, but how and why exactly do you use this tie up? I imagine you have to have good wrist strength? I'd like to learn to use it well, as it seems to be the best for adapting my judo to no gi. Karo Parisyan used it a bit in his fight in the UFC.

Jenfucius
11/17/2003 8:05pm,
i don't know why everyone is so down on football tackles. i played high school football and football tackles are awesome. here's the video evidence everyone at bullshido craves...

http://terrytate.reebok.com/watch.asp