PDA

View Full Version : Difference Between WTF and ATA TKD Organizations



Pages : [1] 2

krazy kaju
3/18/2008 5:19pm,
Are all WTF schools in the US a part of the ATA?

If not, do WTF schools have the same quality issues (easy to get black belts and crappy instructors)?

DerAuslander
3/18/2008 10:23pm,
The ATA & WTF are completely separate organizations.

krazy kaju
3/19/2008 2:01pm,
The ATA & WTF are completely separate organizations.

So do WTF TKD schools still suffer from incredibly low standards, easy to get black belts, and bad instructors?

DerAuslander
3/19/2008 2:07pm,
If it's not a competition oriented school, yes. WTF schools are feeders for Olympic orgs.

krazy kaju
3/19/2008 3:34pm,
If it's not a competition oriented school, yes. WTF schools are feeders for Olympic orgs.

Thanks.

saman
3/20/2008 7:11am,
Are all WTF schools in the US a part of the ATA?

If not, do WTF schools have the same quality issues (easy to get black belts and crappy instructors)?

:qleft1: On what planet did you train in ma??? The ATA does NOT teach tkd - some yahoo in thier leadership invented some bunch of movements that he took from ITF style & gave it a new name. The ATA is the ATA and the WTF is the WTF and of course NONE of the WTF schools are ATA. Every professional martial arts school, possibly even your school, struggles with quality issues but the WTF instructors, by and large, are very good and have high expectations of their student's performance.

TKDfan
3/20/2008 11:29am,
If it's not a competition oriented school, yes. WTF schools are feeders for Olympic orgs.

Well said. I am with my third school since starting TKD. The first 2 did very little sparring and were heavy on the forms. The second actually taught both WTF and ITF forms. Although they claimed to be "Olympic style", I could have been beaten with a feather. My current master is truly a WTF style with a heavy emphasis on stamina and sparring techniques. It is interesting to note that the second school found it necessary to affiliate with ITA and USBBA to give some sense of credibility. It didn't work. That said, I still feel the sport fighting aspect at those first 2 schools was superior to that output by most ATA afiliated organization. My opinion, sorrry if it offends!

Omega Supreme
3/20/2008 11:36am,
:qleft1: On what planet did you train in ma??? The ATA does NOT teach tkd.

Who you calling a moron?

ATA
American Taekwondo Association.
TKD=Taekwondo.

It's in there name.


You may not consider it taekwondo but they do. If they called themselves AKA for American Karate Association (not to be fooled with the American Kickboxing Academy) we would be in the karate section having equally as much fun making fun of krotty.

I'd take a good look in the mirror before calling anybody a moron.

Omega Supreme
3/20/2008 11:44am,
:qleft1: Every professional martial arts school, possibly even your school, struggles with quality issues but the WTF instructors, by and large, are very good and have high expectations of their student's performance.

You need to come to my town.

One WTF club, never goes to tournaments and teaches part time, instructor and students out of shape.

Second WTF school, instructor is a letch pretends to teach mma, and can't remember basic forms.

Third WTF school, good instructor turned to kickboxing hasn't looked back since, closed his school 4 years ago due to bad management.

Fourth WTF school, actually one of the originals up and packed away his school after 2 years in business without informing his student forcing them to pay a long term contract because he decided to move his school 45 miles away when the contract says they have to be more than 50 miles away to cancel.

Fifth WTF school, Guy basically pawned himself up as a blackbelt fat out of shape, managed to find a position on the state board of directors. Just recently took everbody's money and closed shop without warning. Want to guess who his original instructor was?

I know it's not like that all around but that's my history with the WTF and I have 2nd degree blackbelt with an offer to get a third that I really don't want.

retrograde
3/21/2008 7:20am,
Just to be a pedant, the WTF is an organisation that runs sparring competitions (and now one poomsae one). It's more correct to think of these schools as Kukkiwon-style schools, many of which have absolutely nothing to do with the WTF and the style of sparring you see in the Olympics.

Schools that are heavily involved in WTF competitions (or those run under WTF rules by WTF sanctioned organisations. The WTF itself is only involved in really big tournaments) often have very high standards of fitness and conditioning, but may do the bare minimum necessary for forms, one-step techniques, etc (generally, you have to do SOME, because to fight in a WTF competition, you need a Kukkiwon black-belt certification, but those are easy to get). On the other hand, I know some Kukkiwon schools who produce elite level WTF fighters, and also cross-train seriously in BJJ, judo or kickboxing. Clubs who tend to be heavily involved in competitions at least are having their club scrutinised by others, though, and TKD instructors can get pretty bitchy. At least when I was involved, clubs that were seen to have poor technique and lower standards (you know, by TKD standards. Obviously most had terrible skills for ACTUAL fighting) got whispers behind their backs.

To generalise: schools heavily involved in WTF competitions (ie a reasonable amount of their students compete and achieve good results) generally have good levels of fitness and conditioning.

But with Kukkiwon clubs who have nothing to do with competition, you can't really generalise. Compared to what the ATA instructor said, there is far less regulation amongst Kukkiwon clubs. To get a Kukkiwon black-belt certificate, you need to be graded by someone with a Kukkiwon 4th Dan or higher and send the Kukkiwon vast sums of money. That's it. There is no instructor training or specific certification for instructors or head instructors. The Kukkiwon has a basic outline for black-belt grades, but there's no one policing it, and you can theoretically set anything you want for your colour belt tests. The only commonality between any Kukkiwon-style schools are that they practise the Taeguk form-set.

Anyway, that was all far too long and off-topic, but hopefully rests that debate.

It is Fake
3/21/2008 7:36am,
Actually, you know it won't rest the debate. You probably just ignited a new one.

retrograde
3/21/2008 8:26am,
Heh, sorry, it wasn't my intention. I was just trying to explain exactly what the WTF is - as some people don't seem to know - and point out the futility in trying to generalise about Kukkiwon-style clubs.

Art
3/21/2008 9:59am,
Kukkiwon is responsible for training instructors. They hold regular courses throughout the year for domestic instructors and they also hold courses for out of towners.

The issue within the WTF/Kukki is that Kukkiwon has a set curriculum that schools must adhere to; however, they have yet to dictate a solid set of standards.

retrograde
3/21/2008 10:21am,
They hold courses, but there is no requirement to attend (or if there is, they're not enforcing it, because I know loads of KKW head instructors who have never done one).

But eh, I'm not really criticising the way its done (plenty of clubs have much better grading requirements and tests than those set out by the KKW), just saying the nature of it makes it hard to generalise about what people in the organisation are doing.

TKDfan
3/21/2008 12:04pm,
Actually, you know it won't rest the debate. You probably just ignited a new one.

That he did.

Kukkiwon is not a TKD governing body but rather a black belt certifying body and a rank registry. In order to compete at national/International level, you need a Kukkiwon certification. And to get that you must be submitted by a WTF affiliated instructor. You are right that certifications must be submitted by 4th Dan and up and the certifying instructor must be higher in rank by at least 1 Dan than the Aplicant.


Kukkiwon does have instructor certifications. You must be 4th Dan to be eligible for an instructor certification (goes along with the 4th requirement above), and 1st through 3rd should never be considered more than assistant instructors.


That said, does it work this way in the real world? certainly not. We all know that money hunger master instructors can get a kukkiwon cert for anyone with a big enough check. This however does not reflect upon the WTF, which is the governing body for Moo Duk Gwon TKD worldwide and for USA Taekwondo here. Any organization, even ATA, has it's good practitioners and also bad ones. If you wish to assess an organization, do so by the level of BS that it is willing to accept.

DerAuslander
3/21/2008 12:21pm,
MODS, please split discussion of the WTF/Gukgiwon away from the ATA FAQ. I am currently on my handheld.