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Henshin-a-gogo
3/19/2008 4:52pm,
Greetings all, I'm a n00b (clearly :P) to bullshido and I'm looking for advice on a solid grappling art. I have 9 years of experience in ITF TKD so i reckon I have the striking down. I'm looking for info on where BJJ stands in regards standing techniques and whether there are other styles with a more rounded approach to grappling than the (apparently) "shoot and mount" of BJJ. Please don't kill me for the generalisation, I have no BJJ experience whatsoever. Any relevant info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!! :D

AikidoBot
3/19/2008 4:53pm,
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Mas
3/19/2008 4:57pm,
Welcome to Bullshido.

Though I am a little biased, arguably Judo encompasses more elements to grappling than does most BJJ. It does depend on the school and instructor, for both BJJ and Judo, but in my experience Judo tends to have both throws and groundwork, while BJJ generally is majority groundwork.

I think "shoot and mount" is a gross generalization, them's fightin' words 'round these parts.

Hedgehogey
3/19/2008 4:58pm,
There are going to be people who tell you to do about fifty different grappling arts at once.

**** those people. Do BJJ, Judo, or Sambo and enjoy it.


Though I am a little biased, arguably Judo encompasses more elements to grappling than does most BJJ. It does depend on the school and instructor, for both BJJ and Judo, but in my experience Judo tends to have both throws and groundwork, while BJJ generally is majority groundwork.

Noone's yet come close to completing my Kosen Judo scavenger hunt, so hahahahaha bitter judoka.

Henshin-a-gogo
3/19/2008 5:01pm,
Thanks, tbh I'm a little biased against BJJ (I don't like the gracies). But I'd definitely consider Judo.

Mas
3/19/2008 5:12pm,
HedgehogeyNoone's yet come close to completing my Kosen Judo scavenger hunt, so hahahahaha bitter judoka.
I'm actually in agreement with you Hedge, I meant depending on the school and instructor you will have either a ton of throwing with little to no groundwork, or a good deal of throwing with a smattering of groundwork. Also Sambo is great as Hedge said, if there's some in your area.

I am only bitter about your haircut hedge, not that BJJ players tap Judokas out regularly.

SBG-ape
3/19/2008 5:47pm,
Thanks, tbh I'm a little biased against BJJ (I don't like the gracies). But I'd definitely consider Judo.

It is not necessary to like the Gracie family in order to train in BJJ. If your only bias against the art is based on a distaste for some of it's more famous practitioners then I'd strongly urge you to actually try it, if only to have better grounds on which to form an opinion. There are many reputable schools without ties to the Gracie family.

Having said that, I'll admit that most BJJ schools will not focus heavily on stand-up grappling. Most MMA schools with BJJ classes will have seperate classes to teach wrestling from the feet.

Sambo has a great reputation but can be hard to find. Judo will (almost certainly) not do as much ground work as BJJ but will be great for the clinch. Judo is also widespread & cheap; so that's probably the best option.

Henshin-a-gogo
3/19/2008 5:59pm,
Yeah you're right. It's just an irrational prejudice on my part. I'll keep my eye out.

Kid Miracleman
3/19/2008 6:37pm,
Dude, I remember when I used to HATE the Gracies. They thought they were SOOO cool, acting all cocky and doing a conga line to the Octagon in those early UFCs and saying how BJJ was the single best martial art EVARZ. Royce Gracie, that ugly bastard, with his stomping side kicks and butt scooting! And that lying sumbitch Rickson Gracie, claiming he had over 400 victories and no defeats! Feh!

Of course, at the time I was LARPing in my Kung Fu jammies and point sparring with dipped foam booties... why roll around on the ground when you can just practice the ol' "elbow to the back of the spine" takedown defense?

Anyway, BJJ (and sub. grappling in general) is a lot of fun, I'd take classes if I had the money. I'd recommend checking out any grappling schools in your area if you have any free time.

prezbuluskey
3/19/2008 8:19pm,
Why do you hate the Gracies? They're a fine family in my opinion.

JohnnyFive
3/19/2008 9:02pm,
In my experience: (I'm even now much more of a Judoka than a BJJ'er)

Groundwork is easier to get good at than standing throwing (I'm not the only one who thinks this), but standing throwing can be really really useful. For example, if I have thrown someone Judo-style and landed atop his chest, Judo is quite sufficient for my purposes. If I have messed up my throw and now we are scrambling on the ground, BJJ becomes very useful. BJJ'ers tend to have enough takedown skills to get someone to the ground, but generally speaking they do not get the extremely dominant positions a proper Judo throw gives you.

Judo can give you some bad habits for 'fighting', like turtling up, and stalling on the ground waiting for the ref. BJJ'ers can give you bad habits ... or rather, some BJJers of my acquaintance fail to be sufficiently 'explosive' when it comes to Judo throws. Kind of hard to explain, but for example, when they do o-soto-gari, some of them you can 'see' thinking: "OK, first I offbalance him with my hands, then I step in for my entry, then I reap", instead of everything working together all at once. I think David Camarillo says something about this in his book.

Again, generally speaking, though, the difference between Judo and BJJ is not so enormous for someone who has not really done gi-grappling before. To someone who is a gi-grappler, there are big differences, to someone who is not -- well, it's kind of like how I don't care about who's a better star ship captain: Captain Kirk or Captain Picard, but people who are into Star Trek care a WHOLE LOT.

I've never done SOMBO before, but a SOMBO guy has repeatedly thrown and submitted me in randori before.

Teh El Macho
3/19/2008 9:24pm,
Why do you hate the Gracies? They're a fine family in my opinion.

You are kidding right (save Renzo and some of the younger ones, of course; they are a nice bunch gent.) As for your question, two names: Whorion and Ryan (RIP)... 'nuff said.

To the OP, enough time has passed for BJJ to evolve above and beyond the Gracies. Bless them for their contributions to martial arts, but that's as far as the praise goes.

BJJ, the sporting aspect of it, whether it's with GI or no GI, is's freaking awesome. Depending on the school, either it will be completely ground-based or it will integrate some stand up grappling (Judo or Wrestling based).

Judo is awesome as well, and although it won't have in general the same ground grappling depth as BJJ or SOMBO, it does provide sufficient grappling knowledge for any combat situation (in addition that it's throwing-based approach will usually allow you to end a fight by dropping your opponent on his head.) And it's cheap.

Wrestling is another great thing to contemplate, but it will be harder to find a school that takes adults, as hard as finding a SOMBO school.

Whichever of those four choices you take, you'll do fine so long as you have fun. You do that, and you'll come with a nice fighting toolbox.

pauli
3/19/2008 9:39pm,
I'm a little biased against BJJ (I don't like the gracies).
neither do most bjjers. it's only an issue if you train at a gracie school.

Kid Miracleman
3/19/2008 9:54pm,
two names: Whorion and Ryan (RIP)... 'nuff said.Er, don't you mean "Rorion?" I think you may be thinking of "Whorian Gracie," a forum member who used to post here.

pauli
3/19/2008 10:01pm,
whorian was a name change for a regular (badsifu, iirc), who is now under another name, and was a reference to rorian's almost comical greed and lack of shame. "whorion" is pretty commonly used, when applicable.

Teh El Macho
3/20/2008 8:39am,
Er, don't you mean "Rorion?" I think you may be thinking of "Whorian Gracie," a forum member who used to post here.No bro. I mean Whorion, the true, hidden secret name of Rorion, the one who bestowed upon us the Gracie gift, the one who never ceases to exholt the superiority of GJJ (not BJJ, GJJ) and the only person with enough talent in weaselspeak to turn Royce's defeat against Hughes into yet another 'BJJ wins again!' moment.

That man could sell milk to a cow.