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View Full Version : Catch as catch can...any opinions?



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Hemant
2/25/2008 3:36pm,
I've gotten the impression in my brief time here that a lot of the catch as catch can or other "american submission wrestling" types smell of bullshido. Ie: Furey, Gotch, Hatamaker, Farmer Burns (or is it Brown?). I did a cursory search and haven't yet turned up a whole lot. I am always open to anything that will improve my game and have read some of the stuff from the above named and some of it seems interesting although none was new with respect to submission grapplings' Japanese roots by way of Brazil. I guess it all applies more directly to the no-gi game. Can anyone give me a brief idea of why people are smelling the bullshido with these guys? Is it because of the involvement with pro-wrestling/worked fights? Any other reason for the lack of love? Anyone training in similar styles with positive info? Much appreciated!

GhostOfKimura
2/25/2008 3:37pm,
We knew you could do it! Hemant posted, YAY! And if a bot is this rude, just imagine harsh this is gonna be. Hope you're wearing a thick gi.

Roidie McDouchebag
2/25/2008 3:59pm,
Speaking as a Catch Wrestler, Catch Wrestling sucks. Not all Catch Wrestling, the Pancrase/Shooto/RINGS guys from Japan are better and applied their techniques to actual fighting (sometimes), which lead to the crappier crap getting filtered out. The guys who learned from them, Hume, Paulson, Frank Shamrock, etc, are also good (some of the guys from the Lion's Den also...just not Ken). However, being the product of a Bart Vale affiliate, I can say that I was taught a lot of pain focused techniques with little value outside of discomfort for the opponent. Like, imagine the diametric opposite of what we did at that throwdown...neck cranks that almost never result in submission, sawboning your forearm across the face (why? WHO FUCKING KNOWS), trying to crush your opponent with a leg scissors on the body (WTF?), such a focus on top position and power based reversals that sweeps and technical guard work go almost completely out the window.

Now, this isn't to say I didn't learn anything useful, or that neck cranks aren't useful for that matter, but pain techniques are mostly annoying and work only in an attrition sense.

As for Karl Gotch, I figure he was a decent submission wrestler and taught guys who have taught some decent fighters. Also, I like to make fun of BJJ by mentioning that Mitsuyo Maeda was a Catch Wrestler in addition to being a Judoka, as was Kimura. However, the others you mention suck and suck hard. Matt Furey claims to have trained with Gotch, and did for a few weeks or something, but Gotch later made it clear that he thought very little of Furey and considered him a snake oil salesman (there's more info on here about this somewhere, hopefully somebody else will find it, cause I've given up on the search function). Furey would sell his mother poison with a medicine label on it if he could make a buck off it, IMO.

I don't know much about Hatmaker other than having seen some pictures of his techniques that looked pretty awful.

Hemant
2/25/2008 5:12pm,
Thanks for the input O'sB. I might check out the catch wrestling in Burnaby to see what kind of training they offer. They have a bit on their site about how they discourage "advanced techniques" during friendly sparring (they mention leg/foot submissions and neck cranks). I figure though, for 20 bucks a month, I can't go wrong. I'm just looking to roll with some new partners and it may be interesting to spar with dudes who claim a different background than typical BJJ. On another note, Hatamaker had a few interesting bits on his "beyond BJJ" video. I've used a couple of his escape techniques doing no-gi against BJJ guys. I can't claim to know a whole lot about his credentials though.

Omega Supreme
2/25/2008 6:57pm,
Speaking as a Catch Wrestler, Catch Wrestling sucks. Not all Catch Wrestling, the Pancrase/Shooto/RINGS guys from Japan are better and applied their techniques to actual fighting (sometimes), which lead to the crappier crap getting filtered out. The guys who learned from them, Hume, Paulson, Frank Shamrock, etc, are also good (some of the guys from the Lion's Den also...just not Ken). However, being the product of a Bart Vale affiliate, I can say that I was taught a lot of pain focused techniques with little value outside of discomfort for the opponent. Like, imagine the diametric opposite of what we did at that throwdown...neck cranks that almost never result in submission, sawboning your forearm across the face (why? WHO FUCKING KNOWS), trying to crush your opponent with a leg scissors on the body (WTF?), such a focus on top position and power based reversals that sweeps and technical guard work go almost completely out the window.

Now, this isn't to say I didn't learn anything useful, or that neck cranks aren't useful for that matter, but pain techniques are mostly annoying and work only in an attrition sense.

As for Karl Gotch, I figure he was a decent submission wrestler and taught guys who have taught some decent fighters. Also, I like to make fun of BJJ by mentioning that Mitsuyo Maeda was a Catch Wrestler in addition to being a Judoka, as was Kimura. However, the others you mention suck and suck hard. Matt Furey claims to have trained with Gotch, and did for a few weeks or something, but Gotch later made it clear that he thought very little of Furey and considered him a snake oil salesman (there's more info on here about this somewhere, hopefully somebody else will find it, cause I've given up on the search function). Furey would sell his mother poison with a medicine label on it if he could make a buck off it, IMO.

I don't know much about Hatmaker other than having seen some pictures of his techniques that looked pretty awful.

Just to add to what my bitch just said. I have found the stuff I learned from catch is very useful to open up an oppenent but agree that it's pretty craptastic as a base grappling art.

Brandon
2/26/2008 1:46am,
Just to add to what my bitch just said. I have found the stuff I learned from catch is very useful to open up an oppenent but agree that it's pretty craptastic as a base grappling art.


Do you feel that catch wrestling could be beneficial when combined with an already strong grappling base?

Roidie McDouchebag
2/26/2008 2:11am,
Yes, but I only say that because BJJ sometimes seems not to be rough enough (no neck cranks, slams, etc).

Omega Supreme
2/26/2008 11:25am,
Yes, but I only say that because BJJ sometimes seems not to be rough enough (no neck cranks, slams, etc).

What he said.

miscend
2/26/2008 6:54pm,
Please take in mind the fact that Bullshido.net is mostly populated with BJJ nutriders. And BJJ guys and Catch guys don't always see eye to eye. So take what you read here with a grain of salt! If I were you i'd visit one of the more reputable gyms and see for myself how it shapes out.

Personally I find that Catch is good for submission wrestling and probably a better transition to MMA since it is all no-gi. But being an old school and traditional wrestling style it is highly attribute based and very rough.

theotherserge
2/26/2008 7:03pm,
The biggest factor affecting Catch-IMO- is that the lineage was broken. All the cool stuff going on in the US, UK and Europe was interrupted by WWI. And it didn't regain its status after that.

Then mix in the effect of putting 'rasslin' on the tele and technique and authenticity are lost to the subliminally-gay soap opera that we now have today.

krazy kaju
2/26/2008 7:07pm,
Doesn't catch include pins?

This means no guard, half guard, side control, scarf hold, mount, guard passing, half guard passing, mounting, etc. You get the point.

miscend
2/26/2008 7:39pm,
Yes traditional pure Catch has no guard game. As putting your back on the floor was the equivalent of tapping out. But nowadays most Shooto and Catch guys do train the guard, I think they call it the scissors.

shironinja
2/27/2008 2:02am,
In a world where the ground is littered with spikes and thus your shoulders should never touch the ground at the same time catch-as-catch-can wrestling would dominate.

But I think the evolution of BJJ has shown us that under a different ruleset the ground is nothing more than another opportunity.

What works for you while keeping in mind your goals?

$20 a month is indeed peanuts but I still wouldn't want to give $20 to everyone that crossed my path in a typical day. It may provide you with an opprtunity to roll with different people or you may discover confliction with an instructor who simply has a desire to preserve the heritage of a martial art that has since moved on and refined into more recognizable MMA forms.

Roidie McDouchebag
2/27/2008 2:54am,
Personally I find that Catch is good for submission wrestling and probably a better transition to MMA since it is all no-gi. But being an old school and traditional wrestling style it is highly attribute based and very rough.
This is only true of a handful of clubs.


But nowadays most Shooto and Catch guys do train the guard, I think they call it the scissors.

They call it the guard.

Shironinja, it's implied on their site that they sometimes do MMA sparring and sub wrestling...so it's not all gay.

shironinja
2/27/2008 4:27am,
Alright then ... will make a point of dropping by in the next month to get a better taste of what they are up to.

madhorsebjj
2/27/2008 4:37am,
It is true about the BJJers. It is like asking a bunch of evangelical christians what they think of Islam. Their view of competing ideologies is somewhat biased