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MBuzzy
2/18/2008 12:55am,
I just got back from an incredible seminar. One of the main points that we covered was "decoding" our traditional techniques.

For example, most traditional arts are used to cross blocking hand over body, throw block, pull other hand back rotating the hand, etc. But very few of us look at that as anything more than just a block. We talked about the block not actually being the block, but the strike...and the transitional movement is the actual block.

I'm curious how many people look at their basics or forms more deeply than the surface application?

kanegs
2/18/2008 10:05am,
I'm curious how many people look at their basics or forms more deeply than the surface application?
My very first class the first move taught was a low block. It was then explained to me to never use it in a fight (or sparring) as it left my head exposed to attack. We learn it in order to learn to generate power with the hips, keep our balance, etc.

In fighting stance we keep our hands up to guard our head, use our elbows to protect the body and use our legs to protect us from low kicks.

MBuzzy
2/18/2008 10:18am,
This was kind of the point of the seminar and I've wondered this a thousand times. Why are we teaching all of these basics that are not effective in a fight? Why does our sparring look NOTHING like your hyung or basics? Shouldn't this stuff all be related? Yes - basics are a great way to teach Huri and power generation, they're a great way to teach basic coordination and to get the movements down, but as we teach them....they're not effective.

I can honestly tell you, the **** that these guys are teaching works. Low block IS combat effective, I plan to use this stuff in my sparring when I get back, but it requires a COMPLETELY different perspective. when you cros your arms and twist your hips BEFORE the actual block....THAT'S the block. the hand on top is performing basically a Pok sau and guiding the opponent's hand away, the other hand then grabs, pulls the opponent in and the low block is the STRIKE to the knee. And that's only one way to interpret. Like I said, it requires a lot of playing around, thinking outside the box and vision (I'm not trying to sound like a psycho here, it works....well, it works as much as traditional MAs can). Honestly, it just helps to see it.

If this **** was a cult, I'd drink the kool aid.

DerAuslander
2/18/2008 1:42pm,
It's not Koolaid.

It's Yogurt Soju.

kanegs
2/18/2008 2:13pm,
First I just want to make clear that I'm a beginner and not to take too much stock in what I think.


I can honestly tell you, the **** that these guys are teaching works. Low block IS combat effective, I plan to use this stuff in my sparring when I get back, but it requires a COMPLETELY different perspective....
Was this demonstrated against a resisting opponent?


...when you cros your arms and twist your hips BEFORE the actual block....THAT'S the block.
In my school, instead of a basic x-block in front of the body, we chamber the block by the ear on the opposite side and our hands are in fists. So there really is no way to apply that example to the way were are being taught.


...the hand on top is performing basically a Pok sau and guiding the opponent's hand away, the other hand then grabs, pulls the opponent in and the low block is the STRIKE to the knee. And that's only one way to interpret. Like I said, it requires a lot of playing around, thinking outside the box and vision (I'm not trying to sound like a psycho here, it works....well, it works as much as traditional MAs can). Honestly, it just helps to see it. So if I'm reading this right instead of blocking a kick to the groin you're blocking a punch and then pulling them in with the arm that throwing the elbow to the rear, and the hand which I thought was blocking is actually counter-striking my opponent.

So, who did the seminar? Do they have a website? Is there any video?

dull_edge
2/21/2008 3:20pm,
I think the main point is looking deeper into your basics, he just just useing the low block as an example.

MBuzzy
2/21/2008 4:05pm,
I think the main point is looking deeper into your basics, he just just useing the low block as an example.

Exactly right.


First I just want to make clear that I'm a beginner and not to take too much stock in what I think.


Was this demonstrated against a resisting opponent?


In my school, instead of a basic x-block in front of the body, we chamber the block by the ear on the opposite side and our hands are in fists. So there really is no way to apply that example to the way were are being taught.

So if I'm reading this right instead of blocking a kick to the groin you're blocking a punch and then pulling them in with the arm that throwing the elbow to the rear, and the hand which I thought was blocking is actually counter-striking my opponent.

So, who did the seminar? Do they have a website? Is there any video?

I see that question thrown around here alot - is this demonstrated against a resisting opponent? In this case, its just a block/strike counter, so I'm not sure where the resistance would come. And yes, this was demonstrated against a number of different types of punches. Obviously, different blocks and strikes are called for, but it is all based on the concept of controlling the center. There is only an inch between hit and not hit.

But I believe that the non-resistance training is for learning the basics only. It is necessary to do some things with no resistance just to learn the movement, but once you get most of it right, it is designed to counter resistance.

The point of the entire seminar is not that every basic is different, it was that there is more there. The chamber for that x block may not just be a chamber, could be a block, grab, throw....who knows and it depends how you do it. It just takes the insight to SEE what else might be there. I'm still no good at it, but there can be a lot of applications for simple moves. These arts are based on economy of motion, but there is so much waste. The point is that it might not all be waste, what if it is all USED motion and we find the intended applications for those chambers and prep movements.

What you stated about the purpose is pretty close to how we learned to look at things. There are many ways to look at it, but that's the idea.

The seminar was given by Master Jay S. Penfil, as far as I know, his school doesn't have a site and I don't have the videos YET. If you're interested in more stuff like this, take a look at Iain Abernathy, he gets really deep into bunkai and the like.

G-Off
2/21/2008 4:23pm,
Actually the low block is one of the few I find useful, provided you do it in a fighting stance and continue the circle arm motion past the bottom. It's actually how San Shou and Thai fighters catch front kicks. Jerome LeBanner shall demonstrate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfrkFCPLLmc

If you continue that motion up, you can get your hand behind the heel and catch their leg, so the low block is actually somewhat useful. Of course, this is an appilcation you will have to find for yourself, as no teacher I've found will tell you about it 9_9

The high block, on the other hand... :bssign:

DerAuslander
2/21/2008 4:43pm,
There's no such thing as a block.

You were taught wrong.

Art
2/21/2008 8:21pm,
I don't know, trying to say a basic technique is a,b,c,d . . . z and trying to justify the use . . . doesn't that defeat the purpose of being . . . basic.

One thing that bothers me is that most places I have been too fail to teach the most basic thing first . . . stance. They may show it to you but showing and teaching and drilling are on completely different levels.

MBuzzy
2/21/2008 10:48pm,
That is true, before you start breaking these things down this deep, it is very important to have the BASICs down first. Most of this stuff is reserved for higher level practitioners.

G-Off
2/21/2008 11:06pm,
What's the point of basics if they can't be applied?

EternalRage
2/21/2008 11:42pm,
Agreed. Maybe it takes a monk level enlightenment to understand, but I never enjoyed the SBD seminars where a master would pick apart one of those soo gi or jok gi and come up with some out of the box way of looking at it.

Because as great as the theoretical musings of a hadan mahk kee are (and I've been to a couple seminars where they picked it apart like your seminar), when it came down to it, I still didn't see any one use it in sparring afterwards.

The only justification for training it in my eyes was the huri, it trained stability and expansion/contraction with a specific type of hip torque - similar overall movement used in an ahneso pakuro chagi.

G-Off
2/21/2008 11:49pm,
Agreed. Maybe it takes a monk level enlightenment to understand, but I never enjoyed the SBD seminars where a master would pick apart one of those soo gi or jok gi and come up with some out of the box way of looking at it.

Because as great as the theoretical musings of a hadan mahk kee are (and I've been to a couple seminars where they picked it apart like your seminar), when it came down to it, I still didn't see any one use it in sparring afterwards.

The only justification for training it in my eyes was the huri, it trained stability and expansion/contraction with a specific type of hip torque - similar overall movement used in an ahneso pakuro chagi.

Yeah. I don't see the point of a move if it can't be applied the way it's taught. If you need to "pick it apart" to find the ways it can be used, you can likely find find a better, simpler technique to use or a different exercise that gets the same areas for a workout.

Still though, low block is one of the very few I actually use a lot in sparring, albiet from a kickboxing-ish stance.

Art
2/22/2008 2:48pm,
I'm a big fan of the K.I.S.S principle. Why try to find a zillion and one reasons to do the technique when the simplest is the best.

DerAuslander
2/22/2008 6:36pm,
The issue at hand here is that the "basics" aren't. The KISS principle Art ascribes to is absolutely right. Hyung are a tool for preserving a curriculum in a situation where you cannot or do not wish to preserve said curriculum via the written world.

If a given movement (and I'm just pulling this out of my ass, not actually providing bunhae for a technique) such as a low block is actually slipping and parrying a punch before responding with your own strike, then that's not basic. Its a curriculum. You have to provide the lesson plan.

The first technique in that series is slipping a punch So you first have to learn how to throw said punch. That's a basic. Drill throwing that punch on pads. Drill it with a partner. Put on gloves and head gear, work throwing that punch with footwork, working on your accuracy. Now that you know how to throw that punch, you can begin working on slipping it. Partner up, drill statically to get the gross motion. Add footwork and spontaniety in the attack's timing. Work in the parry, and see how you have to adjust your footwork and distancing if you intend to make contact with your opponent versus just getting out of the way. Now, work in the counter attack. Build on the timing, distancing, and footwork you've already learned. Learn how to weigh the benefits of slipping & countering versus parrying & countering. See what works best for you.

That's basics.