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View Full Version : Self defense and H2H courses usefull or useless?



Rigante
11/03/2003 3:54pm,
I would be interested in peoples opinions regarding the usefullness or uselessness of "self defense" courses or even military and police hand to hand courses, etc. Probably most of us are warped enough that we pretty much enjoy thumping others and getting thumped upon (maybe it was due to being dropped on our heads to much as infants!). At any rate we like to train pretty regularly except for vacations and injury recovery. But what about "other folks" from the soccer moms to the SEAL teams and other Tier 1 groups.

Does one have to train regularly to effectively use combat art techniques. For example my understanding is the the SEAL teams get approximately 40 hrs of initial CQB training with refreshers every 6 months etc. Police probably have a similiar schedule. Is our government just wasting time and money here. Obviously your typical Tier 1 professional is a different critter physically and attitudinally than joe civilian. So are CQB courses only really usefull for professional combatants if they are usefull at all.

What about the soccer moms etc. In response to their asking for self-defense training do we just chuckle and just tell them they are screwed, or what would you recommend to them. Should they just carry weapons and hope for the best (if they can legally carry). Are there any effective things we can teach the soccer moms out there beyond running and screaming. I look forward to your thoughts.

kismasher
11/03/2003 3:56pm,
Originally posted by Rigante
I would be interested in peoples opinions regarding the usefullness or uselessness of "self defense" courses or even military and police hand to hand courses, etc. Probably most of us are warped enough that we pretty much enjoy thumping others and getting thumped upon (maybe it was due to being dropped on our heads to much as infants!). At any rate we like to train pretty regularly except for vacations and injury recovery. But what about "other folks" from the soccer moms to the SEAL teams and other Tier 1 groups.

Does one have to train regularly to effectively use combat art techniques. For example my understanding is the the SEAL teams get approximately 40 hrs of initial CQB training with refreshers every 6 months etc. Police probably have a similiar schedule. Is our government just wasting time and money here. Obviously your typical Tier 1 professional is a different critter physically and attitudinally than joe civilian. So are CQB courses only really usefull for professional combatants if they are usefull at all.

What about the soccer moms etc. In response to their asking for self-defense training do we just chuckle and just tell them they are screwed, or what would you recommend to them. Should they just carry weapons and hope for the best (if they can legally carry). Are there any effective things we can teach the soccer moms out there beyond running and screaming. I look forward to your thoughts.


good questions, i have no idea, sorry

Ronin
11/03/2003 4:01pm,
The military CQB and hand-to-hand course have gotten better and better for the elite units, but the basic infantary still get taught dick.
Police and SWAT... well its not that great.
The good side of this is that the instructors get sent out on the latest courses and come back with the latest info. Bet from the gun course at the H&K course, or the SCARS course, etc.
The oportunity to do constant hand-to-hans and CQB is ALWAYS available to the soliders, when they want it.
Its much better in Japan obviously.

The Wastrel
11/03/2003 4:30pm,
The oportunity to do constant hand-to-hans and CQB is ALWAYS available to the soliders, when they want it.

No.

HAPKO3
11/03/2003 4:42pm,
I think that if a person is a badass to begin with, he or she can learn quite a bit from a self defence seminar. I would assume that just ebout everyone who made it to the Seals is gonna be a tough ************. Thus, they can absorb the skills, and apply them in real life. Soccer moms would be a different story. Even if there was such a thing as Dim Mak that could be taught in a day, most soccer moms would not be able to excersize their new deadly skill due to psychological reasons. Have you ever eye gauged someone in real life? I mean, stuck you fingers into another human beings eyes, felt the squish and water, heared him screma in pain, and proceeded to push your fingers deep into the sockets? If you have, then you know just what kind of a psychological barrier you have to overcome to do something like that. Once again, I would assume that navy Seals would have a much easier time doing something like this.

All in all, if you're tough to begin with, there's utiliy in self defence seminars and short cources.

If you're soft, then it will take a lot of pain, sweat, blood, and dedication to make yourself tough. Before you do that, even if you can fucking Dim Mak anyone, you're going to fold under pressure, and not be able to stand up for yourself. Some people are born tough. They have it easy. I am, by nature, a softie. And I could not begin to describe how much abuse I had to go through before I could even throw a punch at a person with intent to do them harm. I assume that I'm more or less an extreme case for a male, but women are, on average, softer. Especially the type that become soccer moms.

The Wastrel
11/03/2003 5:05pm,
Most "Tier 1" professionals are the kind that will continue to drill that stuff in their "off-time" as well. If that wasn't the kind of thing they thought of as leisure, they wouldn't be there in the first place. They're NOT going to think that they don't have to train it if they want to do it.

Soccer mom will.

Rigante
11/03/2003 5:06pm,
How much do you think even the SEAL team members will remember after say 4 months away from the course and on deployment etc. Are they just learning to be aggressive and confident in close quarters or how much technique would they remember. I have had circumstances where I remembered moves even though I hadnt practiced them in years, is it the same thing or does continual training keep the other less used skills more available and alive so to speak.

The Wastrel
11/03/2003 5:09pm,
Ask Vargas. Everybody experiences skill degradation on deployment. You just deal with it. I'm just saying that we're talking about people who spend their spare time working on things like this. I mean, I was a just a rank-and-file soldier and it's all I ever did in my spare time.

The Crack Taoist
11/03/2003 6:12pm,
Originally posted by ronin69

The oportunity to do constant hand-to-hans and CQB is ALWAYS available to the soliders, when they want it.
Its much better in Japan obviously.

Er.. no (to echo Watrel). I train on my own, and couldn't
manage training time on the gov to save my life.
Obviously I'm not with FAST or a MC Division but even so.
The Marine Corps Martial Arts program is interesting,
but it's primary function is to train marines to have a
certain mindset.
I train in my offtime. Most squids who train (even the
SEALS) do the same thing...

Trust me on this one.

blankslate
11/03/2003 9:03pm,
You need regular training for these things to be effective. I have no idea how often the soccer mom should take refresher courses, etc. Don't use it and you start to lose it...

Ronin
11/03/2003 10:25pm,
Guys , what I meant is the the instruction is there , yes on your own time, but it is there, you also go to the range on your own time too, right?
I mean I was not US military , but **** guys the Canadian military does not compare to the US in terms of funding, but, I had the oppotunity to do Hand-to-hand all the time ( leisure time) and there were MANY MA of all type to train, and all with the same mind set, to survive.
It HAS to be the same in the US, I was part of the Airborne ( Sniper/CS).

The Wastrel
11/04/2003 12:27am,
Ronin,
The US army spends all its money on gadgets and our outrageous "tooth-to-tail" ratio.

The Wastrel
11/04/2003 12:27am,
And I was all legs.

SLJ
11/04/2003 6:44am,
Hap is 100% correct.


To answer the original question, the courses I've seen evidence of have been pretty bad. I've seen some metropolitan police (English) "self defense" stuff and what I saw was pretty stupid. If they want to try that against a criminal they better pick hapless one.

Ronin
11/04/2003 7:34am,
Some of the best police training ( H to H) i have seen, outside SWAT/ETF and such, was the Tokyo police, very well done, very proffesonal, but then again, most cadets and offciers were ALREADY of Black Belt level. Maybe that is the problem, too many unprepared soliders and law enforcment officers. I mean if you are NOT getting what you need , find it. There is a school in Mississauga ( outside of Toronto) called " warrior and philospher" and they are ALL LAw Enforcment, and they train to a high level, maybe something like that is the solution.