PDA

View Full Version : MMA guard becoming Judo turtle?



Pages : [1] 2

M1K3
1/02/2008 10:30am,
I was talking with one of my friends at work, heís a BJJ Purple and Iím a BJJ White, about how the guard in MMA is becoming the equivalent of the turtle in Judo. It seems like more and more people are using the bottom guard position as a way to clinch and stall until they can get stood back up. I donít think you see as many people using the guard as a position to set up sweeps or submissions any more. Just wondering what opinion any of you out there may have on this. Pro or con, what do you think?

Mods, I put this in YMAS on purpose to get a larger audience, no problem if it needs to be moved.

Ronin.74
1/02/2008 10:36am,
If you are not a solid grappler and know your opponent is going to dominate you on the ground, then your best option is to probably stall from the bottom until you get stood up. So in a sense your right, the guard is becoming BJJ's "turtle". Most of the guys you see using this strategy are strikers by nature, with weak grappling skills, from an MMA perspective this is a good strategic move, it can also make for boring fights though.

Kung-Fu Joe
1/02/2008 10:39am,
It seems like more and more people are using the bottom guard position as a way to clinch and stall until they can get stood back up. I think that this is greatly due to improved Sub-defense on the part of fighters. It's not like Submission Grappling, where you get all the time you need to set up and work. Not to mention the fact that hammerfists and short elbows greatly hamper a good submission artist.

Grapplers need to be of much, much higher caliber than they used to in order to work well from their guard, these days.

--Joe

M1K3
1/02/2008 10:44am,
If you are not a solid grappler and know your opponent is going to dominate you on the ground, then your best option is to probably stall from the bottom until you get stood up. So in a sense your right, the guard is becoming BJJ's "turtle". Most of the guys you see using this strategy are strikers by nature, with weak grappling skills, from an MMA perspective this is a good strategic move, it can also make for boring fights though.

I agree, but... It seems to be happening a lot more. The bottom guard is only used as a set up or for offense by what seems to be a smaller and smaller number of fighters. Could be wrong but that is my impression.

Ronin.74
1/02/2008 10:51am,
I think that this is greatly due to improved Sub-defense on the part of fighters. It's not like Submission Grappling, where you get all the time you need to set up and work. Not to mention the fact that hammerfists and short elbows greatly hamper a good submission artist.

Grapplers need to be of much, much higher caliber than they used to in order to work well from their guard, these days.

--Joe

This is true.

M1K3
1/02/2008 10:55am,
Again, yes but. Even if you don't see submission attemps how about at least trying to sweep him. Or maybe, you could quite rewarding people for stalling by standing them up. Either learn to use the guard or take your beating. Your choice.

kismasher
1/02/2008 10:57am,
i understand why fighters are loathe to go for subs from guard as they can sacrifice position if they fail, but what is up with no one even attempting sweeps? the hip bump sweep that Jared Rollins pulled in the TUF Finale show was nice, don't know why there's not more of that.

m1k3 posted too fast.

Kung-Fu Joe
1/02/2008 11:04am,
Again, yes but. Even if you don't see submission attemps how about at least trying to sweep him. Or maybe, you could quite rewarding people for stalling by standing them up. Either learn to use the guard or take your beating. Your choice.As I understand it, though, the stand-them-back-up rule isn't for the sake of the fighters, it's for the sake of the audience. Generally, holding someone down in your guard, even if they're landing the odd strike, isn't going to get a person Knocked Out. It's just wasting time.

On a similar subject, why don't we see more attempts to Pass Guard by the top man? A lot of guys, these days, are comfortable just trying to GnP from inside, and don't care that they'll get stood back up.

--Joe

M1K3
1/02/2008 11:10am,
I agree with that also. Not sure what to do though, it seems the skill level for the guard game has diminished, or maybe we are finding out the guard just isn't that great of position for either player and can I say it, the Gracies were wrong!?!

FictionPimp
1/02/2008 11:14am,
Well one thing, you never hear anyone talk about "How he won that round with that sweep." Or "How that guard pass just secured that round."

To win a fight you need to do two things, punch the guy, and take him down. Nothing else seems to really matter.

You could have a fantastic guard, constantly active working sweeps, subs, etc. But if you got taken down each round and worked the whole round from your back, you just lost a fight.

wavy tiger
1/02/2008 2:26pm,
FictionPimp has a good point. If you watch some of the stuff from the earlier days of Pride it was a lot different than the fights we see now, and I think this was at least in part due to judging. Guys would happily pull guard to set up all manner of sweeps/submission attempts without worrying too much about "being on the bottom". Especially guys like Sakurai. They would pull guard and take their time while they broke down their opponent's posture so they could get control and mount some offense. Even if the eventual attempt failed, the guys fighting "properly" from guard could win the round because the judges were able to recognize the fact that the guy "on top" got completely controlled. Plus they had that "fighting spirit and technique" judging system instead of the 10 point system we have now. Don't get me wrong, that was anything but a perfect system, but I'm not sure the 10 point system is right either.

Now, in the UFC you can do the exact same thing, but lose the round because the other guy was "on top" trying to punch. Dana White has even mentioned something to this effect. They need a different standard for MMA judging.

I also think there's a proliferation recently of guys who can actually knock someone out from inside a closed guard. Look at the amount of times Faber has done this for instance. I don't think you saw as much of this in the early days of MMA. I don't think the Guard is becoming the "Turtle", but I do think it might be a symptom of a problem MMA has had in this country since the beginning (remember the days of "I'll pull you down and hold you here for 30minutes" UFC fights?). Basically, my point is that we need a judging system that won't automatically penalize a guy who fights from guard.

kismasher
1/02/2008 3:46pm,
that doesn't make much sense.

the point is that, regardless of scoring, sweeping someone from guard to a mounted position allows a fighter to establish a dominate position and finish the fight. passing guard to get mount is the same situation. the issue of scoring is secondary. i wonder if these sometimes if these guys practice sweeps and passes, and i have no doubt that they do, yet i rarely see a basic sweep even attempted.

the hip bump sweep in the Rollins vs. Koppenhaver (sp?) was the turning point in the fight and allowed Jon to pound the **** out of and finish Rollins.

Xramlark
1/02/2008 7:22pm,
That's the ironic result of efforts to reduce the subjectivity in deciding who is grappling effectively. The guard is automatically a 50/50 position to the officials. The top guy in a guard would get more points because he can just throw punches in bunches and avoid getting caught in a sub. So if you're going to pull guard for offensive purposes, you'd better not take 30 minutes like old UFC or all those punches add up to a decision for the top guy. If you just hold the dude from guard then it's still up to the officials who's controlling who. The way it is scored in the UFC is to encourage (apparent) aggression and if you don't sub, sweep, or improve position (unless you've already got the dude's friggin back) then you're not being aggressive.

Roidie McDouchebag
1/02/2008 7:33pm,
Shitty grapplers abound in MMA. Those that don't suck use the guard effectively.

Nickeroon1987
1/02/2008 7:36pm,
This is what the rubber guard's for. It actually lets you work for submissions without having to have a chin of steel.

krazy kaju
1/02/2008 8:35pm,
OKAY Eddie Bravo.