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10/29/2003 8:56am,
Traditional jujutsu

I have a hard time understanding when Japanese Jujutsu began to be regarded as “obsolete” or “out of date”.
There are 3 types of jujutsu:
1) the systems taught within a bujutsu school such as the Shinto ryu, Shinkage Ryu, etc.
2) The jujutsu that is older than the Meiji Restoration in Japan (19th Century)
3) The jujutsu created after the Meiji Restoration and based more on sport or philosophical concepts, rather than combat.
Some of the oldest schools of martial arts in Japan taught, and still teach jujutsu ( or taijutsu or Yawara, as it was sometimes called. Kumi Uchi is another name for hand-to-hand combat, but that refers to grappling in armour), school such as the Tenshen Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, the many branches of the Shinkage ryu, the Kage ryu, the Nem ryu, the list goes on.
Most of us are familiar with the popular Kito ryu and the know, but really unkown, Tenshin Shinyo ryu, forms of jujutsu that were used by Kano to create Judo ( he borrowed the throws from the Kito ryu and the strikes , chokes and locks from the Shinyo ryu). Some are even familiar with the Yoshin ryu and the Danzan Ryu ( a more modern school).
But few even know the existence, outside of Japan, of even older schools such as the Takenouchi Ryu. These older schools are some of the most complete styles of combat you will ever find.
A complete curriculum of striking, grappling, edged weapons, blunt weapons,etc.
Many of these styles had added firearms to their systems, keeping with the tradition of combat effectiveness that jujutsu is know for.
The newer styles maybe be more “sports” oriented, but the techniques are still there, they just need to be studied with combat in mind.
Judo, the first martial sport, has some very effective techniques, IF you know who to apply them the rights way for combat.
In short, Traditional Japanese Jujutsu deserves our respect for its effectiveness, for being the original style of all those other systems that are just a re-invention of TJJJ.

Check out the pic below for the (outdated jujutsu) :)

10/29/2003 8:56am,
A sample of the Takenouchi ryu jujutsu, created 1500's:

10/29/2003 9:05am,
Serge Mol's book, CLASSIC FIGHTING ARTS OF JAPAN a guide to Koryu Jujutsu. Is a good start for pple trying to understand Japanese JJ. The majority of pple, especially the BJJ crowd:P, don't really know what JJJ is and should STFU until I tell them for I am their Lord.......er I mean should read the book.:D

10/29/2003 9:11am,
Donn Dreager's books are, in my opinion, the best on the subject of real japanese matial arts,his series:
Classical Bujutsu
Classical Budo
Modern Budo and Bujutsu
Are the bible of Japanese Martial arts.

World Kobudo ??? I nevee herd of them, isn't kobudo the weapons arts of Okinawa? the Tonfa, nunchaku, sai, bo ?
So what would KUBUDO be??
What styles are involved?

10/29/2003 9:38am,
Dreager is a great resource. I mentioned Mol's book because it gives a good overveiw of different ryuha.

KOBUDO means 'Old/Ancient War Way' it really covers any Koryu art not just the Ryukyu weapons set. KOBUJUTSU is a term that is also used and is the same as above.

10/29/2003 9:45am,
Yeah,I have Mol's too.
There are some nice books out there and even vids and dvd's:

10/29/2003 10:55am,
Join? to what point? to achevie what?

10/29/2003 11:16am,


10/29/2003 11:18am,
As soon as I find a pic of a guy fighting 10 people in the snow, with broken glass, and a 2 x 4 with a nail in it, with knives, guns, baseball bat and a wet cat, I will post it ASAP !!

10/29/2003 11:32am,
I never bothered with orgainizations myself.
Never saw a reason to, like you.

10/29/2003 11:52am,
I think the problem lies in that, unless you do some research on what school/style's afiliation/roots are, you might genuinely think you're studying an ancient form of Gimme Yo Mani Jujutsu, only to find out later after having spent precious time and money, that the instructor made up the style based on a few weekends worth of judo classes at the YMCA. So, as a result, people's respect for traditional jujutsu (or traditional martial arts in general) begins to erode.

Not that I have anything against the YMCA (I spent several years training in karate in one) . . . it's just that, from a standpoint of a newbie with zero experience, whose word do you go by? Do you follow the marketing ads, "My Jiu Jeetsue is strongest!" in the yellow pages and internet? Do you listen to your friends? How do you know if you're doing the real stuff? I think we're going to see, if it's not already apparent, a number of people claiming to teach BJJ, then being revealed as being fraudulent. I can see it now, "Fernando Chiquita, heir of the secret system of Portugese Jujootsu".

How does this relate to traditional jujutsu? Well, if you're trying to learn an older style of it, how do you go about finding a teacher? Being in the United States, there are only a few koryu exponents that I know of that have spent time in Japan learning their stuff -- Meik and Diane Skoss, Ellis Amdur, Phil Relnick . . just to name several. Chip Armstrong is the current director of the International Hoplology Society, which was founded by Draeger, and maintains a website at .http://www.hoplology.com

Diane Skoss also maintains an excellent website Koryu.com (http://www.koryu.com) which has many articles that detail some of the catalogued Japanese koryu. Her 'Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan' Series (of which, I believe, there are three volumes) that she edits do an excellent job of continuing the work begun by Donn Draeger in his original volumes. As ronin69 pointed out, many of the koryu are battlefield systems that address weapons and empty handed techniques .

My own feeling is that it's very important to be familiar with the ranges of unarmed engagements, e.g. if someone shoots in for your legs, kicks at your head, throws
a fast hook or tries to choke you out -- none of these things should be experienced for the first time on the street. The dojo is the place to learn without fear (hopefully) of permanent injury. I also think that nothing makes you appreciate distance and timing like someone swinging a weapon at you.

10/29/2003 12:38pm,
Thanks for posting the "hopology" website, I neglected to add that.

10/29/2003 1:56pm,
Many think that the techniques of GJJ are unique, and they are not, many see GJJ and see the limitations and think ALL JJ is like that, it is not.

10/29/2003 3:49pm,
Does anyone find it strange that our resident master of JJJ, Blade, is absent from this conversation???

10/29/2003 4:29pm,
Originally posted by Edge
There is no reason to regard TJJJ as outdated. If TJJJ was the inspiration for Gracie JuJitsu then it is just another example of how we can mold our arts to fit our goals and body types.

STFU n3wb!!!!1

BJJ is derived from Judo not JJJ.

10/29/2003 4:30pm,
Would be nice to hear his opinion.