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JKDChick
10/25/2003 11:14pm,
"The Irony of Combat Sports vs. Combat Arts

“Herein lies the great weakness of martial arts that train only with kata. Because the techniques they teach cannot be performed safely in a sparring match or sporting competition, they can only be taught by repetitive drilling on a cooperative partner. Such kata training never develops the attributes that are required to accompany the technique if the fighter is to successfully apply it under combat conditions. In other words, kata simply builds technique, not attributes. This imbalance is the great failing of the traditional martial arts and one that has been readily exposed in MMA [Mixed Martial Arts] combat. Combat sports, on the other hand, allow the students to apply their ‘safe’ techniques at full power and thus they strongly develop the essential attributes that make the successful application of techniques possible. This rationale explains the irony of how an art limited to ‘safe’ techniques can regularly defeat arts packed with deadly or dangerous techniques.”

Renzo Gracie"

Discuss.

Quoted from: http://www.defendu.com/newsletteroct2003.htm

Halogen
10/25/2003 11:33pm,
Originally posted by JKDChick
"Herein lies the great weakness of martial arts that train only with kata. Because the techniques they teach cannot be performed safely in a sparring match or sporting competition, they can only be taught by repetitive drilling on a cooperative partner. I think thats a load of tripe. I don't think I've ever seen a kata/form that only included breaks and the infamous eye gouges and groin rips. Punches and kicks as well as most other techniques found a form/kata can be practiced through sparring, some places simply choose not to (for whatever reaons).

Greese
10/26/2003 3:00am,
Well, that makes it simpel enough.
However, if you don't spar, then you can't fight well.

liuzg150181
10/26/2003 5:09am,
Originally posted by JKDChick
"The Irony of Combat Sports vs. Combat Arts

“Herein lies the great weakness of martial arts that train only with kata. Because the techniques they teach cannot be performed safely in a sparring match or sporting competition, they can only be taught by repetitive drilling on a cooperative partner. Such kata training never develops the attributes that are required to accompany the technique if the fighter is to successfully apply it under combat conditions. In other words, kata simply builds technique, not attributes. This imbalance is the great failing of the traditional martial arts and one that has been readily exposed in MMA [Mixed Martial Arts] combat. Combat sports, on the other hand, allow the students to apply their ‘safe’ techniques at full power and thus they strongly develop the essential attributes that make the successful application of techniques possible. This rationale explains the irony of how an art limited to ‘safe’ techniques can regularly defeat arts packed with deadly or dangerous techniques.”

Renzo Gracie"

Discuss.

Quoted from: http://www.defendu.com/newsletteroct2003.htm
Though i consider myself to be TMA,but agree wif 99% of things written~~~~
but the 1% which i dont agree is that TMA only trains in kata,if thats the case u r just learning the techniques(as above,just like hamburger w/o meat paddy) or just dancing like the taichi for the elderly~~~~~

True TMA training would tell u that kata is only a part of the syllabus~~~

The Crack Taoist
10/26/2003 6:14am,
Originally posted by JKDChick
"The Irony of Combat Sports vs. Combat Arts

“Herein lies the great weakness of martial arts that train only with kata. Because the techniques they teach cannot be performed safely in a sparring match or sporting competition, they can only be taught by repetitive drilling on a cooperative partner. Such kata training never develops the attributes that are required to accompany the technique if the fighter is to successfully apply it under combat conditions. In other words, kata simply builds technique, not attributes. This imbalance is the great failing of the traditional martial arts and one that has been readily exposed in MMA [Mixed Martial Arts] combat. Combat sports, on the other hand, allow the students to apply their ‘safe’ techniques at full power and thus they strongly develop the essential attributes that make the successful application of techniques possible. This rationale explains the irony of how an art limited to ‘safe’ techniques can regularly defeat arts packed with deadly or dangerous techniques.”

Renzo Gracie"

Discuss.

Quoted from: http://www.defendu.com/newsletteroct2003.htm

Sounds like more "TMA vs. MMA" tunnel vision.
To which I can only say "wake up dude! we didn't render
untold species extinct with our mount or sprawl or guard,
or our phoeniz eye fist or chi!"
We did it with weapons.
Traditional Martial Arts is a big chunk of territory.
It includes things like the filipino styles, which focus on
DANGEROUS TOOLS instead of "dangerous techniques".

Let the BJJ crowd go round and round on the karateka
or gungfu practioners.
Meanwhile the kalista and the arnisadors et. all will
be doing cutting practice with our long knives and doing
our cuts , with real sparring tossed in on rattan nights.

Soft mats. Single Opponent. No weapons.
Sure dude...
I don't dismiss the utility of MMA, I train boxing myself
because my FMA class doesn't focus on physical conditioning.

If the Gracies want to do MMA and martial sports great.
I applaude them. They are likely more skilled at their
material than I am at mine.
But they aren't the whole of the arts. Unless the Gracies
have a blade curriculum they are keeping secret lolol.

Blad3
10/26/2003 7:30am,
Combat sports, on the other hand, allow the students to apply their ‘safe’ techniques at full power and thus they strongly develop the essential attributes that make the successful application of techniques possible. This rationale explains the irony of how an art limited to ‘safe’ techniques can regularly defeat arts packed with deadly or dangerous techniques NOW who;s talking about Combat sports and non-sparring, non-sportign arts? He's correct, although the techniques they develop aren't goign to work (unless of course they can proove it.) I think when he says deadly techniques he 1) doesn't understand that they're BS, they don't work 2) he's making fun.

Vargas
10/26/2003 9:56am,
No, I believe Renzo realizes that strikes to the eyes, throat, groin, etc... are painful and potentially deadly. The point he's making is that you can't realistically train those techniques. Sure, you can try and use protective equipment and do the whole 'Bulletman' (big padded suit w/helmet) self-defense thing but it's just not the same. Much better, he states, to constantly practice certain 'safer' techniques at full speed. That way, you have the muscle memory and skill to win a 'real' fight, even though you are paradoxically training with 'non-deadly' force. This is the reason why 'sport' martial artists (NCAA wrestlers, Golden Glove boxers, competition judoka, purple belt and above BJJ fighters, etc...) tend to be so formidable in a throwdown. They don't practice eye-gouges, throat strikes, biting or other 'dirty tricks' but they don't have to. They already have an arsenal of moves/strikes that have been practiced countless times against fully resisting opponents.

Now someone brought up the questions of weapons. From some of the things I've read, the Gracies are fully aware of how deadly weapons are, especially in a two-on-one or worse situation. However, weapons can be dropped, taken away or simply not possible to carry, so you always need skill in unarmed combat for basic self-defense. Weapons are cool, but they aren't a substitute for being able to fight empty-handed. When everyone carried a sword, fencing was a lot more practical than the present day. That being said, the weapons you can carry (knife, gun, baton, etc...) definitely need to be trained with in as realistic a manner as possible, as much as possible. I think Renzo was just limiting himself to the unarmed arena in his quote out of desire for brevity, not a conscious decision to neglect the idea of armed combat.

Matt W.
10/26/2003 10:11am,
Let the BJJ crowd go round and round on the karateka
or gungfu practioners.
Meanwhile the kalista and the arnisadors et. all will
be doing cutting practice with our long knives and doing
our cuts , with real sparring tossed in on rattan nights.



Speaking from an American perspective, I think that for hand to hand training, unarmed combat forms are the best. There are times when you can't be armed, or an armed response isn't appropriate. So something like BJJ, MMA or a hard core striking art are perfect for those cases. But if you are able to have a knife with you, and are justified in using it, then you should also be able to have a firearm or other modern weapon (stun gun, pepper spray, etc.) with you. And if you are justified in using a knife (deadly force) you'd be justified in using one of the other weapons I just named. So why mess around with those knife/sword/stick fighting arts? Doesn't make sense.

If you can be armed, you should be armed with the best modern weapons available. And those weapons trump the weapons of tradational MA. And if you can't be armed, you're better off with a combat sport like MMA than a trad weapon art. Trad weapon arts are mostly obsolete, whereas there will always be times when you can't be armed, so unarmed MA will always have a place.

Regards,
Matt

The Crack Taoist
10/26/2003 10:14am,
Originally posted by Vargas

Now someone brought up the questions of weapons. From some of the things I've read, the Gracies are fully aware of how deadly weapons are, especially in a two-on-one or worse situation. However, weapons can be dropped, taken away or simply not possible to carry, so you always need skill in unarmed combat for basic self-defense. Weapons are cool, but they aren't a substitute for being able to fight empty-handed. When everyone carried a sword, fencing was a lot more practical than the present day. That being said, the weapons you can carry (knife, gun, baton, etc...) definitely need to be trained with in as realistic a manner as possible, as much as possible. I think Renzo was just limiting himself to the unarmed arena in his quote out of desire for brevity, not a conscious decision to neglect the idea of armed combat.

I hope the Gracie's are aware of this. I would expect them
to be, being a family of extraordinary martial artists.
I question whether some of their followers have truly
grasped this point however...
Vargas I'm asking you flat out..
In STRICTLY PRACTICAL terms (i.e. not for sport, or for
exercises, or tourney competition, or money etc.), which
body of understanding is more valuable and should get
primary focus in one's limited training time...
1. Unarmed?
2. Armed ?
3. Both are equally valuable?

I say ARMED. Preferably in a manner than has some
conversion potential to your unarmed techniques (this
is a FMA perspective obviously).

How say you?

There is a wonderful little saying the Sayoc-Kali folks have
about a principle they call the "feeder mentality".
It goes like this
"What if opponent has a knife?
*I* have the knife!"

I train so as not to drop the knife. Attempting to disarm a
skilled knifefighter is a road to the grave (trust me here!).
There is nowhere on earth (short of a involuntary visit
to a prison) where I cannot legitimately take some sort
of weapon. Maybe not a knife.. but I will have something....

PizDoff
10/26/2003 10:51am,
What a friggin nutr----, er whoops.


I believe most people agree with Renzo, but I personally wish he had phrased that better. (The site IS pro BJJ. No or little credit given to Judo and JJJ in some articles.)

Funny how the FMAs seem to get over looked a lot. People see the karate and kung-fu stylists doing their forms and give birth to misconceptions.



WTH is going on with me? Don't tell me I think better with a hangover!

grimel
10/26/2003 11:57am,
Originally posted by Matt W.
There are times when you can't be armed, ...

Hahaaha, even in prison they manage to be armed when they want to be. There is not a SINGLE place on the face of this planet I can not go armed.


But if you are able to have a knife with you, and are justified in using it, then you should also be able to have a firearm or other modern weapon (stun gun, pepper spray, etc.) with you.

Oh, please! Take time to learn just a tiny bit about thelaw before spouting bullshit. I can have a knife in Boston, I can't have a gun in Boston. I can carry a knife in NC, I can't carry a gun in NC.


And if you are justified in using a knife (deadly force) you'd be justified in using one of the other weapons I just named. So why mess around with those knife/sword/stick fighting arts? Doesn't make sense.

Because a gun isn't always an option and stun guns/pepper spray have a much higher failure rate than a knife


If you can be armed, you should be armed with the best modern weapons available. And those weapons trump the weapons of tradational MA.

Dream on. A standard cane is one of the most go anywhere weapons to be found. Take your modern stun gun and try to deal with someone weilding an old fashioned cane as Jo staff.

Try a grappling fight with a gun and then with a knife.

Try palming a pistol and then try palming a legal folder.

Try concealing a pistol and a legal knife.

Guns have their place., but they are not the endall and be all.


And if you can't be armed, you're better off with a combat sport like MMA than a trad weapon art. Trad weapon arts are mostly obsolete, whereas there will always be times when you can't be armed, so unarmed MA will always have a place

Okay, let's put this into a real life concept not a dojo world. Being the good guy and not violating any laws that you are and training in BJJ you meet Mr bad guy who is violating a few laws (i.e. he's mugging your ass) and is using this rather cheap copy of a USMC Ka-bar to do so. Would you like to have just a tad bit of say FMA type training where you have dealt with such a weapon unarmed? Would you like to have some FMA type training with such old fashioned weaons as say a rope/bandana/BELT? How about a little yarawa training to use that minimag light you carry for power outages?

The Wastrel
10/26/2003 12:09pm,
Herein lies the great weakness of martial arts that train only with kata.

You know, he didn't say ANYTHING about all "traditional martial arts". What he said is right there above. And later he said this has been the great failing of traditional martial arts (non-caps) because you simply won't find any of the so-called "MMAs" that ONLY train kata.

Not only that, but he clearly defines MMA as a venue, rather than as a system. So maybe he isn't forgetting about FMAs at all. Maybe, JUST MAYBE, when he said "martial arts that train only with kata" that's actually what he meant? Oh my! Could it be possible?

The Wastrel
10/26/2003 12:11pm,
but the 1% which i dont agree is that TMA only trains in kata

But that's NOT what he said. Would anyone disagree with the statement that martial arts that only train in kata are ONLY found under the (ridiculous) category of TMAs?

The Crack Taoist
10/26/2003 12:16pm,
Matt,
Listen to these folks, they are making sense.
As my profile says... I'm in Virginia.
As such my Concealed Carry Permit enables me to
legitimately carry a handgun concealed. Legally.
I STILL carry a spyderco folder plus miscellaneous
other instruments of mischief.
I go to the range every week, I'm setting aside funds
in the budget for schooling with an IDPF champion/instructor.
BUT If you think guns are the be all and end all for
weapons fighting think again.
I have friends who are security guards, cops etc.
Though I am no FMA master I have NO DOUBTS of my
ability to take on a single opponent armed with
a holstered/secured handgun using only my knife,
assuming I am 15 ft. away or less. The amount of time
neccessary to draw, aim and accurately fire..is FAR less
than the time I need to draw, close and cut. Try this
with a friendly FMA practioner and see! It's even worse
for the gunfighter if they are carrying concealed (most
concealed carry rigs are SLOOOW to deploy!). In most
CCW states OPENLY displaying a handgun is called
"brandishing" and will get you hauled off to County.
So concealment rigs are a neccessity.
Cops will tell you about the 21 ft. rule. ASK THEM!
If I am within closing distance of a cop, obviously not
carrying a gun, but am "palming" something knifesized
they will treat me as a deadly threat (Wisely I might add!).

Food for thought!

grimel
10/26/2003 12:23pm,
Originally posted by The Wastrel
But that's NOT what he said. Would anyone disagree with the statement that martial arts that only train in kata are ONLY found under the (ridiculous) category of TMAs?

Not only that, but he clearly defines MMA as a venue, rather than as a system. So maybe he isn't forgetting about FMAs at all. Maybe, JUST MAYBE, when he said "martial arts that train only with kata" that's actually what he meant? Oh my! Could it be possible?



ONLY being the key word. Sad part being I can't think of a single TRADITIONAL ma that only trains with kata, the quasi-traditional arts are legion. I'll go one step farther and call TKD sparing by and large free form kata. You should see it. All padded up and not allowed to HIT.

MMA_Phil
10/26/2003 12:44pm,
Don't FMAs train using flow drills?