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Blue Negation
11/16/2007 10:31am,
Inspired by jackrusher's thread...

So I was told a couple months ago that my guard is easily blue belt level but that I don't use enough basics. I thought about it, and he was right: my bottom game is based on half-->half-butterfly-->butterfly or X and the sweep or taking the back. My full guard is rudimentary and I only use it when we start out that way, where I immediately work crappy attempts at flower sweep/armbar/triangle combos until I get it or more likely end up in some sort of open guard and I can redirect things to half butterfly or X.

I at first of course focused most of my guard work on the full guard as that's what most guard teaching is focused on but I, as the smallest and physically weakest guy in my gym, got frustrated with guys I can't even close my guard on stacking out of armbars, turning out of triangles, bowling me over out of omoplatas, etc. Oh, and completely stopping me from even trying the kimura/hip bump/guillotine series by virtue of holding my torso down with one arm while working on my legs with the other. I've had some minor success with collar chokes but I don't really like them and again they can often stuff my attempts by just grabbing one hand and yanking it off. Plus, I compete in no-gi as much as gi and don't want to only have one solution.

So I started going the open-guard-from-hell route with the butterfly/X(+some spider) stuff and actually started doing great, and I've kinda gotten stuck there. I mean, it works, and it works great. But I see there's a big hole in my life where sweet sweet Gracie-style full guard lovin' should be.

I realize this is vague and stupid, but any input on how to make full guard work for a 150 lb 5'8" guy would be great.

Kintanon
11/16/2007 10:45am,
I'm a little smaller than you are and I get told how hard it is to get past my closed guard all of the time. My closed guard game is all about getting one real tight overhook. To that end I'll try to sit up and go for a hip bump sweep, if they push me back down I attack one of the arms and try to suck it up tight into my armpit, then fall back and bring them down. If they resist me falling back I go back to the hip bump and try to push them over. Once I get the over hook and have them broken down I start shrimping out on the overhook side and working the triangle choke or the omoplata. I'm currently trying to figure out how to hit an armbar without giving up the overhook.
Oh, and if they are trying to hold you down with one arm attack the **** out of that arm every time. Go for kimuras on it, push it across their body and try arm drags, use it to climb up and try to take their back. Make them spend all of their time worrying about what you are going to do with that arm.

Blue Negation
11/16/2007 10:56am,
I'm a little smaller than you are and I get told how hard it is to get past my closed guard all of the time. My closed guard game is all about getting one real tight overhook. To that end I'll try to sit up and go for a hip bump sweep, if they push me back down I attack one of the arms and try to suck it up tight into my armpit, then fall back and bring them down. If they resist me falling back I go back to the hip bump and try to push them over. Once I get the over hook and have them broken down I start shrimping out on the overhook side and working the triangle choke or the omoplata. I'm currently trying to figure out how to hit an armbar without giving up the overhook.Cool... will have to think about this.


Oh, and if they are trying to hold you down with one arm attack the **** out of that arm every time. Go for kimuras on it, push it across their body and try arm drags, use it to climb up and try to take their back. Make them spend all of their time worrying about what you are going to do with that arm.
Yeah, I mostly get this in gi though so I have a lot of trouble dislodging the belt grip. In no-gi my problem is the hip-killing blanket wrestlers that pass via boredom.

Kintanon
11/16/2007 11:02am,
Belt grip is a bitch.... Attacking the arm like crazy is still a good idea, but not much I can do for you there.

Give me the run down on how you're getting passed by the wrestlers. I wrestled for a couple of years too, so I can probably give you some tips.

Blue Negation
11/17/2007 2:10pm,
It's no one pass but they usually involve a lot of sudden pushing down of a leg and then explosive hip switching. I do fine in no-gi really, it's dealing with deathgrips that pin me down in gi that I have a problem with.

Das Moose
11/17/2007 5:17pm,
I'm currently trying to figure out how to hit an armbar without giving up the overhook.

Try this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YgOHW-f4vY

In this example I went for it when my opponent stood up, I'm not sure if you could figure out a way to do it if he stays on his knees - although you can attack the opposite arm to the one you have overhooked - say you have an overhook on his right arm, you change your angle towards your left side so you're looking at his right ear and you bring your left leg over his back, keeping your right foot in his hip. You need to start threatening an omoplata or something similar to make him bring his left arm across (or possibly you could do it yourself with wrist control and what not) hey presto, lift your hips and bring your right leg around and in front of his head to hit an armbar.

Hedgehogey
11/17/2007 6:08pm,
Learn to break posture. No other advice will be very helpful until you can do that.

Oh and:

Oh, and completely stopping me from even trying the kimura/hip bump/guillotine series by virtue of holding my torso down with one arm while working on my legs with the other.
...Now is the Jiu Claw of our discontent.

Blue Negation
11/19/2007 10:57pm,
Yeah, I'm starting to feel that I've neglected the basics of posture control in favor of saying "feck it" and playing butterfly/X.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm not quite sure what you mean there with the quote, hedgehogey. Is there something blindingly obvious that I'm missing about attacking a belt grip with a downward pointing elbow and leg control with the other? I can't get my hips up enough against the downward force to make a triangle or armbar attempt even though I want to, the grip makes armdrags hard though not always impossible, and it hurts my mobility enough to make omoplatas difficult. Or so I think. Am I a being an idiot?

all I really do from that point is push off and play open or insert hooks for butterfly :(

Kintanon
11/19/2007 11:31pm,
As Hedge said, I think a lot of practice breaking people down into your guard is the way to go. You may want to try to get your guard a little higher on the wrestlers backs. Give them as little room as possible to leverage your hips down. And again, attack the arms whenever you get the opportunity. Pulling their hand to the mat and going for the overhook, switching your hips out for the armbar attempt. Keep attacking so they don't have time to set up a pass. Squeeze your knees together hard and use your legs to drag them back and forth, keep them off balance. Constantly attack the head as well, pull down on the back of their head almost like a thai clinch or try to sit up and wrap your arm around the back of their neck then fall backwards and drag them down. Keep pressure on them constantly.

Blue Negation
11/20/2007 12:58am,
Dear Ykroon,

One the subject of guards, I read in Grappling Magazine that closed guard doesn't work at high level tournaments. I think I should skip learning the "old" closed guard and jump straight to the butterfly/half guard combo, and specialize in leglocks. Doing more advanced stuff makes me more advanced, right? And therefore a clear winner.

Thanks.AWWWW SHIIIIT

Blue Negation
11/20/2007 12:59am,
As Hedge said, I think a lot of practice breaking people down into your guard is the way to go. You may want to try to get your guard a little higher on the wrestlers backs. Give them as little room as possible to leverage your hips down. And again, attack the arms whenever you get the opportunity. Pulling their hand to the mat and going for the overhook, switching your hips out for the armbar attempt. Keep attacking so they don't have time to set up a pass. Squeeze your knees together hard and use your legs to drag them back and forth, keep them off balance. Constantly attack the head as well, pull down on the back of their head almost like a thai clinch or try to sit up and wrap your arm around the back of their neck then fall backwards and drag them down. Keep pressure on them constantly.
thanks man, you've given me a lot to think about

Hedgehogey
11/20/2007 3:04am,
I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm not quite sure what you mean there with the quote, hedgehogey. Is there something blindingly obvious that I'm missing about attacking a belt grip with a downward pointing elbow and leg control with the other? I can't get my hips up enough against the downward force to make a triangle or armbar attempt even though I want to, the grip makes armdrags hard though not always impossible, and it hurts my mobility enough to make omoplatas difficult. Or so I think. Am I a being an idiot?


I might have made an incorrect assumption, that he's holding your hips down with a belt grip under your hips. If the assumption was right, what i'm saying is that this is one of the few situations where a white belt is licensed to use an eddie bravo move (kung fu move, then whatever from jiu claw).

If he's pushing your hips with his palm, then the solution is still posture breaking, but now it's easier because his arms are divided, instead of forming a single frame. Pushing down on your leg with only one hand is officially a bad idea. It's only a small step towards gracie gifting.

ViciousFlamingo
11/20/2007 3:14am,
I might have made an incorrect assumption, that he's holding your hips down with a belt grip under your hips. If the assumption was right, what i'm saying is that this is one of the few situations where a white belt is licensed to use an eddie bravo move (kung fu move, then whatever from jiu claw).

If he's pushing your hips with his palm, then the solution is still posture breaking, but now it's easier because his arms are divided, instead of forming a single frame. Pushing down on your leg with only one hand is officially a bad idea. It's only a small step towards gracie gifting.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the situation. Why not attack with the kimura/guillotine/pendulum combo, or with a triangle or omoplata?

Blue Negation
11/28/2007 10:06pm,
Thanks everyone, despite a leg injury I went back to practice after a two week hiatus and managed to do far far better with my full guard in part thanks to putting into practice some of the advice on this thread. Highlights:
1) superstrong former wrestler (without a gi on) trying the arm holddown by grabbing my belt -->kungfu move to jiuclaw, some rolling around maintaining the omo and ending it with a americana with legs. "Ow, my arm's numb" "Yeah, tap when it *starts* to hurt"
2) hook sweep using the overhook straight to mounted triangle on the beastly ex-marine that usually owns me
3) Instructor telling me that if my offense were as good as my defense I'd be a purple belt.

pretty good night... still riding the euphoria two hours later.

snowman
11/29/2007 12:00am,
Can I just ask how did the transition from having an overhook in full guard to a mounted triangle happen? I'm having a hard time picturing it. Thanks

Blue Negation
11/29/2007 12:17am,
I landed in mount off the sweep and he tried to shuck me off immediately with his non-overhooked arm. He's strong enough to easily reverse me from side control if I'm not paying excellent attention, so this wasn't exactly a bad idea necessarily on his part. I retained balance though and settled down for a triangle. a gimme really