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Ke?poFist
9/21/2007 7:25pm,
Ok to everyone who's trained in a McDojo or otherwise crappy martial arts program you are well aware of the complicated, flowery, and most importantly utterly implausible movements and techniques being pawned off as self defense. And when asked about more "simplistic" techniques, most notably boxing handwork, that is not only degraded as being for "sport" but it is also claimed to be not as "advanced" of technique as you are learning from them.

No here's the kicker....these very same people take such naive and simplistic outlooks on how to deal with very complex situations, such as how to defend takedowns or how to escape various inferior positions on the ground. The thread in the CMA forum with the video of the guy dropping into a long bow stance as a counter to a shooting opponent got me thinking....what are they smoking!? Sure we've all seen BJ Penn sprawl into a full split to stop Matt Hughes from sucking up the single, but hey, at least Penn's hips were on the ground :P

So the thing is, how can they take such overly complicated stances on fighting, while at the same time trivializing what goes into actual fighting into "if they do A then you do B and WIN" ???

ffsparky26
9/21/2007 7:29pm,
A lot of folks have a lot of time and other personal capital invested in the outated methods and other bullshido. It's hard for them to let go of it, it's saying what you just spend 1,5,20 years on doesn't work. People can't let go of there ego and say that what they were doing didn't work.

Boyd
9/21/2007 8:16pm,
So the thing is, how can they take such overly complicated stances on fighting, while at the same time trivializing what goes into actual fighting into "if they do A then you do B and WIN" ???

I've always wondered this myself. Not to plug my thread any farther up everyone's ass (it's got a flared head so doing such would be impractical as well as impolite), but when I was in karate this exact paradox presented itself to me several times. Even when I was completely buying into all these terrible, terrible moves, it seemed odd to me the black belts--who always stressed simplicity--loved inventing and drilling inane, complex moves.

I was going to shrug and say "I dunno man", but while typing this I realized a lot of BJJ black belts do the same thing. I've heard countless instructors say Jiu-jitsu is all about the fundamentals, then watch Pe de Pano harass everyone with upside-down spider guard. It seemed contradictory until I remember these people were supplementing, not supplanting, their basics.

Your problem is these people adhere to dual realities, an almost Freudian divison. There is the id, which tells the fantasy artist he could land a 540, that at his Advanced Stage he could indeed wristlock two assailants at once. The superego tells him he's just another humble student, and that entails drilling boring things to demonstrate your simple wisdom. Both of these theories are independent of the realities sparring entails, which would lead to the artist using what works, thus blowing your paradox to pieces.

polishillusion
9/21/2007 8:38pm,
maybe "fighting isn't so complicated" does not sound like a good answer?

Teh El Macho
9/21/2007 9:12pm,
maybe "fighting isn't so complicated" does not sound like an exciting answer?there, fixed for ya.

ronaldk
9/21/2007 9:19pm,
i blame the power rangers.

Poo-Jitsu
9/21/2007 10:02pm,
talk about implausible...

i was actually told once that one of the reasons you didn't see my former style in the ring was that as you were punching someone, you could decide, if the threat was grave enough, to change the punch into a finger thrust and poke out their eyes - or jab their throat if they were defending their eyes. all in mid-punch.

Virus
9/21/2007 10:12pm,
D = TS + M

Where D is delusion, T and M is time and money invested in crappy style, and S is status in that style.

I totally read you Boyd on that "making up convoluted bollocks" thing. Watch any bujinkan vid of a shihan as he "plays" with his "opponent" and you will see the most absurd rubbish. But there is a gradient of delusion, ranging from "this behind the back, under the leg reverse wristlock teaches principles that can be used in a real fight." to "This is the str33t r34l d34dly."

Ronin.74
9/21/2007 10:23pm,
Ok to everyone who's trained in a McDojo or otherwise crappy martial arts program you are well aware of the complicated, flowery, and most importantly utterly implausible movements and techniques being pawned off as self defense. And when asked about more "simplistic" techniques, most notably boxing handwork, that is not only degraded as being for "sport" but it is also claimed to be not as "advanced" of technique as you are learning from them.

No here's the kicker....these very same people take such naive and simplistic outlooks on how to deal with very complex situations, such as how to defend takedowns or how to escape various inferior positions on the ground. The thread in the CMA forum with the video of the guy dropping into a long bow stance as a counter to a shooting opponent got me thinking....what are they smoking!? Sure we've all seen BJ Penn sprawl into a full split to stop Matt Hughes from sucking up the single, but hey, at least Penn's hips were on the ground :P

So the thing is, how can they take such overly complicated stances on fighting, while at the same time trivializing what goes into actual fighting into "if they do A then you do B and WIN" ???

I understand your frustration with this kind of thinking. I have been having to deal more and more with people at my Kung Fu classes who use the whole "if you do A then I would do B or C and then D." etc. They seem unable to grasp the notion that after 15 years of training with multiple pro fighters and champions on 2 different continents that I might actually know what I'm talking about. But noooooo, there two years of compliant no contact sparring exercises completely trumps anything I have to say.

Fortunately everyone will be getting sparring gear soon, which these "theorists" are all excited about, but not nearly as excited as me.

:evil4:

new2bjj
9/21/2007 10:53pm,
I praactised Bok fu for several years. It's hard to realize that it was a waste of time, but you gotta suck it up. I always felt it was bullshit- the dorky kata's, the grab arts and "rolling backfists" etc. And my instructor said I spent too much time sparring and kicking the bags. It's pretty sad if I think about it too long. I mean the kata's weren't even the cool, "look at that" Northern Shaolin or Hung Gar man dancing, they were just lame.

datdamnmachine
9/21/2007 11:24pm,
I understand your frustration with this kind of thinking. I have been having to deal more and more with people at my Kung Fu classes who use the whole "if you do A then I would do B or C and then D." etc. They seem unable to grasp the notion that after 15 years of training with multiple pro fighters and champions on 2 different continents that I might actually know what I'm talking about. But noooooo, there two years of compliant no contact sparring exercises completely trumps anything I have to say.

Fortunately everyone will be getting sparring gear soon, which these "theorists" are all excited about, but not nearly as excited as me.

:evil4:

You so have to post video of your first sparring session!

Ronin.74
9/21/2007 11:28pm,
You so have to post video of your first sparring session!

I'll see what I can do, but no promises. It's ridiculous the kind of BS I have to put up with, like trying to get them to understand that their one hand up Bagua defensive stance is not going to be adequate against a trained boxer or kickboxer, it makes me want to rip my hair out.

Virus
9/22/2007 1:56am,
I'll see what I can do, but no promises. It's ridiculous the kind of BS I have to put up with, like trying to get them to understand that their one hand up Bagua defensive stance is not going to be adequate against a trained boxer or kickboxer.

It's not going to be adequate against a trained monkey.

Why are you still doing the bollocks if you know better?

Ke?poFist
9/22/2007 2:03am,
Good responses all around. This issue has just been bothering me a lot lately, especially when I have family (little ones) in craptastic martial arts classes and love to tell me about the wonderful bullshit they are being fed. They will all soon be converted, and their parents will hate me for it :)

wanabeshinobi
9/22/2007 2:44am,
TRADITIONS: Someone came up with something a long time a go and somehow it got into mainstream. Since the school has always done it, they wont give it up. If other schools do it also it must be valid.

FAITH: Seen moves working in movies, imaging using complicated techniques perfectly and effective in real situation and improper theories makes people to believe that what they do works, so why would they change anything? They might actually used a succer punch against some drunkard KOing him, so their punching IS working, why wouldn't the other stuff too.
(I admit that sometimes I imagine that I could KO someone with a single punch or submit someone easily with my own move, but good ol' sparring brings my feet back to the ground).

GODSPEED: At the beginnig they knew nothing, then master told them what to do and they did it for years. Now they are masters them selves and teaching newbies how to do MA. Finally they have achieved something. Skill, condition, power, respect... If some boxer comes and tells that they cannot actually punch they will not want to believe. They feel that they have advanced during the years so it just can't be wasted time. At least they are mentally superior not to trash talk other arts like that boxer does (yet they praise their own art). And if challenged they come up with some excuses of their own or what they have been taught. If they get their ass kicked, it's was just bad luck or something excusable in other ways.

The more they do the crap, the deeper they get into it. All critique is dismissed with lies or semi-truth and nothing changes. If something changes it's into something worse, like finding some crappling moves from the art again.

knutorious
9/22/2007 3:00am,
There's an ATA club here on campus and GOD i wanna punch the asst coach. Freakin fatty in a XMA aluminum suit that only deflects the means of reproduction. But, shoot I worry about their new members all the time. I sat in on one of their clubs, I really wonder what those kids want out of ATA.