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HAPKO3
10/10/2003 1:35pm,
Here's a pretty interesting conversation on RMA on the topic of grappling and self defence that I will quote verbatum. Bill Mahoney, in his response (to an obvious troll) makes a lot of good points a lot better than I would have :)



ORIGINAL MESSAGE --------------------------

Although 10 years of marketing about BJJ being "the ultimate tool" for
self-defense, it is quite obvious 70% of BJJ techniques won't work in
the streets. The average guy who wants to learn self-defense is not
able to perform athletic moves like the ones BJJ grapplers do.
Moreover, wanting to go to the ground in a street fight is stupid:
it's much safer to beat the opponent standing.
When all is said and done, BJJ is not a self-defense system for
everyone. It's a powerful tool for MMA tournements. Not professional
Martial artists seeking for real-world self-defense are more likely to
find their way in other systems.


RESPONSE ------------------------------------------

>Although 10 years of marketing about BJJ being "the ultimate tool" for
>self-defense, it is quite obvious 70% of BJJ techniques won't work in
>the streets

Listin closely...
What techniques work in the street is a small part of the picture.

It is the constant sparring in BJJ practice, wrestling practice, Judo, sambo
etc that make these styles tremendous self defense.

Someone that grapplers sparring/randori alot is USED to the struggle that is
real combat.
Or at least ALOT more used to it than most people.

I don't deny that BJJ moves are only partially related to real fighting.
As are the others.
Wrestling is a perfect example.

Wrestlers are skilled at sophisticated setups for takedowns and the takedowns
themselves that wont be used the same way on the street.
And the groundwork of wrestling has almost nothing that most wrestlers woll use
in a fight in terms of technique.

But wrestlers in training spend lots of time dealing with tough athletic guys
that are struggling to control them.
So they will crush normal people on the street.

This whole self-defense fad is based on bullshit.
You could get a certificate is street combat from Peyton Quinn, Richard Ryan,
Hick Hockheim, Marc MacYoung and the whole combat co-alition.
And if on the street you draw a great wrestler you will get the **** kicked out
of you.
He might not know *how* to fight.
But it won't stop him from beating you senseless.

> The average guy who wants to learn self-defense is not
>able to perform athletic moves like the ones BJJ grapplers do.

So he should buy a gun.

>Moreover, wanting to go to the ground in a street fight is stupid:

Especially for nongrapplers.

>it's much safer to beat the opponent standing.

If it makes you feel any better OK.
I'll beat you standing.
Just like Noguiera, Arona, and Renzo would probably do if they didnt wanna get
their clothes dirty.
You happy now?

>When all is said and done, BJJ is not a self-defense system for
>everyone. It's a powerful tool for MMA tournements.

And most arts don't work in rings, or on mats, or in cages...
or any time a camcorder is running.

>Not professional
>Martial artists seeking for real-world self-defense are more likely to
>find their way in other systems.

Wusses.
Gi

Ronin
10/10/2003 1:45pm,
Interesting, the debate keeps on going and going and going.... like that fucking rabbit.
some huge assumptions being made, on both sides.
This debate will go on forever, never be resolved to the satisfaction of anyone.
Do what works for you.
You can't argue with the guy who has been in 20 fights and never lost and never relied on "groundfighting".
You can't argue with the guy who has been in 20 fights , neverlost and relied ALWAYS on grappling.
You can't argue with the guy who has been in 20 fights, never lost and has relied on both.
This is an argument that can never be won.
Much like that debate about big guys versus little guys.


Its' not that I can't help these people, I don't want to.

The Wastrel
10/10/2003 1:50pm,
Sorry Ronin, technical points can be argued.

udo
10/10/2003 1:54pm,
Good article. Where exactly was it from? I don't know what RMA stands for.

The way I like to think of BJJ and all ground fighting is that even if I don't want to go to the ground, I should still be prepared to fight there because that situation might come up.

Ronin
10/10/2003 1:55pm,
Sorry Ronin, technical points can be argued.

oh? which ones?
Under what circumstances ?
Being performed by who?
Where?
Under what rules ?

See what I mean...

Its' not that I can't help these people, I don't want to.

HAPKO3
10/10/2003 1:55pm,
rec.martial-arts, a usenet group.

Rigante
10/10/2003 3:32pm,
Almost all combat sports by their nature are going to have some degree of usefull techniques or experiences for "self-defense" Some will have more than others. If you have more unscripted scenarios i.e. sparring etc vs training drills the better since on the street there is no script. The more you experience real power when grabbing and being grabbed or punching and being punched the better off you will be because you will be less likely to be knocked off balance mentally, physically or both. I think the MMA type activities have a real strong point here and also it looks like a lot of fun. Grappling and ground fighting is never wrong per se because if thats where you end up you have to deal with it.

That being said I would ask you to look at your training and evaluate it yourself for some of the following conditions. 1)How much it involves deaing with multiple attackers 2)How much does it involve dealing with armed opponents (and not swords, and bo-staffs,etc)3)Both 1 and 2 of above. 4)Fighting in narrow corridors such as aisles on aircraft and buses, fighting inside a vehicle such as fending off a carjacking, fighting from a sitting or laying position 5)Fighting in low light conditions and uneven terrain. Doing any or all of these things I think make training more enjoyable as well as usefull

In the issue about grappling It works well with conditions 2,4,and 5 and may be a choice approach. With conditions 1 and 3 in my opinion grappling would be best avoided, but if you get on the ground during 1 and 3 you better be able to fight on the ground or you are screwed.

blankslate
10/10/2003 3:40pm,
Oh hell yeah!! awesome thread.

Punisher
10/10/2003 3:42pm,
I loved this part of the guys response:



Listin closely...
What techniques work in the street is a small part of the picture.

It is the constant sparring in BJJ practice, wrestling practice, Judo, sambo
etc that make these styles tremendous self defense.

Someone that grapplers sparring/randori alot is USED to the struggle that is
real combat.
Or at least ALOT more used to it than most people.

I don't deny that BJJ moves are only partially related to real fighting.
As are the others.
Wrestling is a perfect example.

Wrestlers are skilled at sophisticated setups for takedowns and the takedowns
themselves that wont be used the same way on the street.
And the groundwork of wrestling has almost nothing that most wrestlers woll use
in a fight in terms of technique.

But wrestlers in training spend lots of time dealing with tough athletic guys
that are struggling to control them.
So they will crush normal people on the street.

This whole self-defense fad is based on bullshit.
You could get a certificate is street combat from Peyton Quinn, Richard Ryan,
Hick Hockheim, Marc MacYoung and the whole combat co-alition.
And if on the street you draw a great wrestler you will get the **** kicked out
of you.
He might not know *how* to fight.
But it won't stop him from beating you senseless.



And basically hated everything else. The guy went from enlightened genius to moronic asshole in just a couple of lines.

HAPKO3
10/10/2003 3:57pm,
Punisher: What exactly do you have a problem with?

Just curious.

Punisher
10/10/2003 4:07pm,
Mostly the tone of what was said. The part I liked was a logical argrument. The rest was the moronic two sentence responses that frankly I'm sick and tired of. He wasn't trying to educate or inform or even debate, he was just being a dick.

Even if the guy was spouting the true meaning of life, I would be less likely to read it and take it seriously simply because of his attitude.

Pandinha
10/10/2003 4:08pm,
That being said I would ask you to look at your training and evaluate it yourself for some of the following conditions. 1)How much it involves deaing with multiple attackers

No matter what style you preach and practice, winning against multiple opponents go down the more attackers you go up against.


2)How much does it involve dealing with armed opponents (and not swords, and bo-staffs,etc)

BJJ does have self defense with knifes, guns, and blunt objects.


3)Both 1 and 2 of above.

Refer to answer number 1

4)Fighting in narrow corridors such as aisles on aircraft and buses, fighting inside a vehicle such as fending off a carjacking, fighting from a sitting or laying position

Let me put combat into perspective for you. If the fight is in a hallway, both fighters have to deal with it, uneven terrain, both of them have to watch their feet. It does not give one or the other a "suppossed advantage". Even if you train to fight in sand, what makes you think you can fight in gravel? Combat is chaos.

As for sitting and laying down, come attack me, obviously you don't know much about BJJ.


5)Fighting in low light conditions and uneven terrain. Doing any or all of these things I think make training more enjoyable as well as usefull

I roll with my eyes closed. I know alot of BJJ guys who do. Uneven terrain is an advantage on both sides.

HAPKO3
10/10/2003 4:17pm,
Actually, uneven terrain, or narrow corridors and such give the advantage to the grappler - because it is that much harder to remain standing.

HAPKO3
10/10/2003 4:18pm,
Punisher: Yeah, but you have to understand that he's responding to a troll. Also, he's been saying the same things over and over again for years. So you can't blame the man for being abrasive.

Pandinha
10/10/2003 4:29pm,
I stand corrected. You are right HAP.

Rigante
10/10/2003 4:32pm,
I agree Anthony fighting is chaotic. It has been my experience whenever you are dealing with chaotic circumstances it is best to have some principles to follow. The brain tends to turn to mush when facing chaos. Having said that I will say (oh, god here comes more **** flying at me)one of the principles I follow is to avoid groundfighting because I may not know right away if the fellow I tussling with has some buddies around. I also take the fight to him rather than be defensive as I would rather know what I am doing then guess what he is going to do. However if I am down on the ground or he moves first I just have to deal with it, life is sometimes unfair