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5shot
8/25/2007 5:28pm,
Hello all,

As a newbie, I know I am jumping into the deep water end of the pool.

I tout a SD shooting method that causes lots of waves, and ticks off many if not most of your traditionalists, and many or most Point Shooters as well.

I say - so be it, if the method works.

Do it.

Just trying to make things as simple, natural, mechanical, and automatic as possible to limit inaccurate shooting in adverse circumstances, such as when someone is trying to kill you at close quarters.

Below is a link to to an article on my site on moving and shooting.

It like most stuff on my site is free, and hopefully you will find it to be of interest and informational as well.


http://www.pointshooting.com/moveleft.htm

Came to this site via the postings of "Samuel Browning" which I found to be very interesting, well done, and valid.

pauli
8/25/2007 7:45pm,
i'm going to live a lot longer without some asshole leaping about in the next lane over.

melk
8/25/2007 8:11pm,
What is the difference between this and IPSC or IDPA? You have an administrative stand and are moving slowly while shooting...

Every study shows that even this won't help you an actual fire fight. Studies done by the Secret Service shows that until a person has been in three fire fights, the most experienced agent is no more effective than an untrained civilian. For this reason they started using simunintions, to give their people those firefights.

Your method seems just as ineffective as anyother on the market. Personally I like the Pramek panic shooting... even the York county sheriff in SC is giving it a look...

here is a video of that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXhrn87O7eI

From the youtube video on your link it seems as though your system takes a one handed approach, also a much less stable position.

Any decent firearms instructor can teach a person to put 5 rounds inside a nine inch plate from 15' or less. I am afraid that you are falling for parlor tricks. This is basic marksmanship. Just look at the NRA Qualification course... it requires the same thing, but that does not mean that it is combat effective.

sheol1980
8/26/2007 3:48am,
What is the difference between this and IPSC or IDPA? You have an administrative stand and are moving slowly while shooting...

Every study shows that even this won't help you an actual fire fight. Studies done by the Secret Service shows that until a person has been in three fire fights, the most experienced agent is no more effective than an untrained civilian. For this reason they started using simunintions, to give their people those firefights.

Your method seems just as ineffective as anyother on the market. Personally I like the Pramek panic shooting... even the York county sheriff in SC is giving it a look...

here is a video of that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXhrn87O7eI

From the youtube video on your link it seems as though your system takes a one handed approach, also a much less stable position.

Any decent firearms instructor can teach a person to put 5 rounds inside a nine inch plate from 15' or less. I am afraid that you are falling for parlor tricks. This is basic marksmanship. Just look at the NRA Qualification course... it requires the same thing, but that does not mean that it is combat effective.

So I practiced disarm techniques very much like the one in this video, and we got quite good at it. We could easily avoid being hit by an airgun if someone was holding a pistol to us withing 5 feet on any side.

That being said we kind of stopped doing it, because we started wondering if it would work in practice. The problem we saw is that the force of the guns slider firing seemed like it would mess up the technique. Several gun enthusiasts agreed, but I haven't spoken to anyone that could really give an account one way or the other.

Do you know?

melk
8/26/2007 7:54am,
The only people that I know that have done this for real or that know people who have are Russians. I state that because in many ways Russians are a breed apart... they just look at things differently, and seem to have higher pain tolerances(take Oleg Taktarov's performances in the UFC for example).

That being said, from what I have been told, it all depends on the hand gun. For instance a 1911 style with a large frame(or even some of the low profile glocks in my estimation) all of your primary contact will be on the frame of the pistol and not the slide, so as long as you don't get overly freaked out and actually hold onto the pistol no problem...

On smaller framed pistols such as the Russian Makarov or on pistols with higher profile slides, my understanding is that it all depends on your grip. If you have just caught the pistol in the V with only minimal contact, you will probably lose some skin but again if you don't break contact it will still work. If you have more enveloped the slide and manage to get a good panicked person strength death grip on it, if it fires you may again lose some skin and possibly suffer some burns(those things are damn hot) but in all likely hood you will stop the slide from fully cycling which will cause a jam and diable the pistol, mission accomplished.

All of that being said those are some of Pramek's more advanced disarms, which will take a longer time to master if for no other reason than the high reliance on fine motor skill. More basic disarms involve chops and punches to the nerve and tendon areas in the wrist which result in the pistol dropping or flying away. Hence the pistol is out of the fight which is a good thing, but not quite as good as you retaining it and dropping the guy on the ground at your feet...
But crawl before you walk.

Nid
8/26/2007 9:47am,
Are we talking about holding onto a semi-auto while it's being fired?

For what it's worth, one of my firearms instructors experimented with it. First he wore a hocky glove, and then tried it with his bare hands. Apparently it was no big deal. There's not that much force behind booting the slide back.

If there were, there'd be no such thing as problems associated with limp wristing.

vigilus
8/26/2007 10:05am,
Melk's video is kinda neat.


I tout a SD shooting method that causes lots of waves, and ticks off many if not most of your traditionalists, and many or most Point Shooters as well.

Considering you're using an airsoft pistol and stolling through the room like you're on a moonlight walk I highly doubt you're making ripples let alone waves.
Clever sales pitch though.

If you're having fun with shooting and playing around fine, don't try and validate you're stuff talking about close quarters combat and life or death situations.

sheol1980
8/26/2007 6:13pm,
Are we talking about holding onto a semi-auto while it's being fired?

For what it's worth, one of my firearms instructors experimented with it. First he wore a hocky glove, and then tried it with his bare hands. Apparently it was no big deal. There's not that much force behind booting the slide back.

If there were, there'd be no such thing as problems associated with limp wristing.

I thought this might be the case, since a bullet wont knock a person over, but not being certain makes me nervous about considering a disarm in a life and death situation.

That being said if practicing with BBguns counts as aliveness, disarming a pistol is (with about 20 hours of practice) easy and reliable.

kungpowell
8/27/2007 10:56am,
One thing to remember is principles...somethings you learn in a class you'd do in real life, some you wouldn't.

The levering on the pistol is a principle for moving the pistol through three planes and engaging the joint degrees of freedom to render their hand useless for a trigger pull, or to manipulate the pistol so they have no lasting grasp on it.

It's not the best disarm, but it's the first one taught to start learning the principles.

In reality, while doing that, you're move to the person on the outside of the holding arm and removing equilibrium and attacking with 'vital targeting' for the eyes, throat, etc. Disable, disable, disable - as long as the guy is thinking he can pull the trigger. Which is good, because he's thinking about using the weapon in his hand, not the weapon that is him.

We've got a million disarms that we do, but recognizing the firearm as an extension of the body, moving off the line of fire, getting to the person's side, and removing their equilibrium with added extreme violence are the basic foundations of any disarm work.

Besides air soft guns and high impact drills, I've only used pistol disarms real time on jackasses with stun guns and while on jobs.

It worked. Which means the principles can be applied all over the place...

You're hands are going to get chewed up when you do bare hand work with a pistol if you grab the pistol. I'd rather a student end up with hands chewed to **** and bruises all over their arms - because he's working his ass off and the other guy isn't letting the pistol go. That means real learning and training is going on!!! A chump on the street isn't going to give up the pistol very easily, so don't let the training partner.

A lot of our disarms don't include grabbing the pistol...I see a lot of systems that make wrestling over a pistol a past-time. The pistol doesn't think, wiggle, bite, fight back. It just fires if the trigger is pulled. I'm more interested in controlling the body controlling the pistol...

Using gloves is great for people who wear gloves...cops, soldiers, EP, etc. The extra grip is perfect. When I did EP, I liked having Nike sport gloves on - it increases your ability to grip and hold.

5shot
8/27/2007 2:30pm,
Sorry, pressed the wrong key.

melk
8/27/2007 2:33pm,
I take that back, the only people I know, other than Matty P, who have done this for real or know someone who has are Russians.

Matty is also in a breed of his own.

5shot
8/27/2007 3:06pm,
Thanks for your comments.

A 22 probably wouldn't buck much more than the CO2 gun used. And I was just walking and shooting. Also, it was the first "take" made, but since it was OK, I stopped. To me the video shows that the method works, and that was the purpose.

On my site, there are pics of "real guns" and the targets used, plus videos showing shooting one and two handed. Try the gun test page if you are interested: www.pointshooting.com/guntests.htm (http://www.pointshooting.com/guntests.htm)

There also is a video of me shooting at and hitting pop cans tossed into the air with an airsoft, which is indicative of a method that is easy and accurate.

Using a two handed grip allows you to make forward punches and elbow smashes as with the CAR system, see pics.

Again thanks for your comments, and I don't plan to debate the method here as I feel that most if not all questions are answered in the articles on the site. I have been doing this for a number of years now, so I have fielded and responded to most any objection one can think of.

Also, if you don't like it, or if it can't be used with your gun, please don't use it.

And you also can try it out yourself, at your own risk and expense of course.

And always use safe gun handling practices.

melk
8/27/2007 3:58pm,
Thanks for your comments.

A 22 probably wouldn't buck much more than the CO2 gun used. And I was just walking and shooting. Also, it was the first "take" made, but since it was OK, I stopped. To me the video shows that the method works, and that was the purpose.

You are right there... however it also won't stop a concerted attacker. A .22 won't even punch through what most people wear for winter clothes in most states.



On my site, there are pics of "real guns" and the targets used, plus videos showing shooting one and two handed. Try the gun test page if you are interested: www.pointshooting.com/guntests.htm (http://www.pointshooting.com/guntests.htm)

There also is a video of me shooting at and hitting pop cans tossed into the air with an airsoft, which is indicative of a method that is easy and accurate.

Using a two handed grip allows you to make forward punches and elbow smashes as with the CAR system, see pics.

If you were hitting all x-ring and could prove that you were not an experienced shooter, I might think that your "method" has something too it. However just hitting paper... don't cut it. If you can't put in all black at at least 20' you won't stand chance in a stress situation. Also you seem to simply disregard all of the studies and research done by Law Enforcement, and military. For instance here is a study done by the NYPD and cited by Viriginia State police. http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles/Shooting/Combat.htm
Even studies done by the Secret Service state that without the use of simunitions the type of aimed accuracy in combat that you are talking about is simply a pipe dream.




Again thanks for your comments, and I don't plan to debate the method here as I feel that most if not all questions are answered in the articles on the site. I have been doing this for a number of years now, so I have fielded and responded to most any objection one can think of.

Also, if you don't like it, or if it can't be used with your gun, please don't use it.

And you also can try it out yourself, at your own risk and expense of course.

And always use safe gun handling practices.

So essentially you came to our forum for free advertising. Now I am not just saying that you are full of ****, but that you are an asshole troll, trying to pump something that is not tested, and does not correspond with any combat statistics or studies, and then you have the balls to say, "use at your own risk." I can only hope and pray that a moderator punk-busts your ass. In case you hadn't noticed the point of this forum is for discussion and debate about the effectiveness of systems. Not for free advertising forr an untested and unproven system that you are not willing to have to defend.

5shot
8/27/2007 5:55pm,
Believe you got your site wrong about the SOP 9 info. The link in the article is to my site.

All the articles and info on my site are for FREE, and the hits are just fine thank you.

And if a mod want to wipe this thread out, no prob.

Your loss not mine.

Have a nice day.

:tongue2:

Don Gwinn
8/28/2007 9:03am,
I can't see the site at work. You're not that guy with the flaming stupidity from THR and TFL, are you?
That will last a much shorter time here.

kungpowell
8/28/2007 9:15am,
Ok, I have decided I too will get Elvis Costello to do a cameo in my next shooting video. he he.