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Bahuyuddha
7/28/2007 1:53am,
Hello,

Apart from just enrolling in some BJJ lessons (my gym offers them at no additional cost on top of my Muay Thai training), how would a fighter with only stand-up striking skills deal with a situation where his opponent went for a takedown? I know there are many different takedown techniques, but not knowing any of them, I don't know how to ask a more detailed question. Are there any successful MMA fighters who have no grappling / ground fighting skills?

Just curious if I'm going to have to give in and take up some jiu jitsu. I have nothing against it at all, my time is just spread a little thin as it is with Muay Thai.

Thanks.

TKDBot
7/28/2007 1:54am,
Welcome to the Bullshido Forums Bahuyuddha... Make sure you review your dojo (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=83) and add it to your user control panel so you can get the http://www.bullshido.net/images/dojoreview1.gif icon in your user info bar in your posts.

Bahuyuddha
7/28/2007 2:04am,
Welcome to the Bullshido Forums Bahuyuddha... Make sure you review your dojo (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=83) and add it to your user control panel so you can get the http://www.bullshido.net/images/dojoreview1.gif icon in your user info bar in your posts.
Thanks TKDBot, but OmegaBot already welcomed me. I guess you can't be welcomed by too many robots though.

slideyfoot
7/28/2007 2:10am,
Welcome to Bullshido!


how would a fighter with only stand-up striking skills deal with a situation where his opponent went for a takedown?
Have you had a look at the early UFCs? That kind of match-up happened quite frequently, and pretty much every time a pure striker came up against a grappler, they were unable to stop the takedown. Maurice Smith, a kickboxer, is noteworthy as possibly the first striker to defeat an experienced grappler (BJJ black belt Conan Silveira): however, he did so by learning enough grappling to keep out of danger (he was taken down, but had developed a competent defensive guard after training with Frank Shamrock).

Its not a very satisfying answer, but in short, the way for a striker to prevent being taken down is to learn some wrestling (or an equivalent). Having said that, I'm not an MMAer - my experience is mainly striking, and since last year BJJ.


I know there are many different takedown techniques, but not knowing any of them, I don't know how to ask a more detailed question. Are there any successful MMA fighters who have no grappling / ground fighting skills?
I can't think of any. There are some who are known for their striking, like Mirko Filipovic and Chuck Liddell, but they both have some grappling (Chuck Liddell was a division one wrestler, for example).

However, my knowledge of MMAer is rather out of date, so things may have changed.


Apart from just enrolling in some BJJ lessons
As a fellow beginner, I'd recommend the following threads:

Training, Stagnation and Tapping (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=974042)
Maximizing what you get out of rolling (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1253088)
Protecting Yourself During Sparring (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1234198)
Grappling Basic Principles (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20609)
First Day Lesson (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1232603)
Fundamental 5 (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1019474)

And the following articles:

Starting BJJ Classes (http://www.grapplearts.com/Starting-BJJ-Classes.htm)
Nuggets of Advice (http://www.aesopian.com/127/nuggets-of-advice/)

fes_fsa
7/28/2007 2:23am,
with how well rounded fighters are these days, you'd probably have a hard time if you didn't have a little grappling experience under your belt.

WestonE123
7/28/2007 2:28am,
haha.

Hmm.. as for teh takedown I can impart my limited knowledge to you. I crosstrain BJJ and Muay Thai, and definitely still a newb but as a pure striker there are a few things you can do.

If the guy makes the mistake of shooting for a takedown from distance throw a thrust knee to his face. From a distance you can see it coming and either a knee to the face or a sprawl is your best bet if you have no grappling skills.

But thats for the guy who makes a mistake... The reality is that the good grapplers will wait for you to throw a punch then slip in or duck to close distance then go for the takedown. Feints will likely work to your advantage here, so when he commits you can be ready with teh knees. However, at close range its hard to get strikes to work because you don't have very much time to react before they have their mits on you.


Finally, you can just be so awesome (or lucky) when striking from a distance that he can't get in close to take you down. Honestly you would have to be a world class striker to pull this off, and even then its extremely risky to go MMA with no ground game. But you can maybe win a few amateur fights that way. An ex ISKA champ who hovers around my gym pulled it off recently. But he was a champ fighting a chump...


Seriously though, your best bet is to cross train in BJJ to at least get the basics so that you can try to get him off you in the likely event that things do go to the ground. Because honestly, they don't even have to shoot into you for that to happen, you can just get too close from punching at each other. My instructor likes to say that "in fights bodies are like magnets that naturally get closer." And it makes sense if your getting wailed on to cover your head up and grab the guy. If you don't know what to do in this situation and he doesn't either, it may just come down to who is more athletic. If you like your odds on that game then neglect the ground if you wish but know what you are risking

Bahuyuddha
7/28/2007 3:22am,
...

Seriously though, your best bet is to cross train in BJJ to at least get the basics so that you can try to get him off you in the likely event that things do go to the ground. Because honestly, they don't even have to shoot into you for that to happen, you can just get too close from punching at each other. My instructor likes to say that "in fights bodies are like magnets that naturally get closer." And it makes sense if your getting wailed on to cover your head up and grab the guy. If you don't know what to do in this situation and he doesn't either, it may just come down to who is more athletic. If you like your odds on that game then neglect the ground if you wish but know what you are risking
Deep down inside I know I agree with you here. I'm just making excuses for why I don't bite the bullet take advantage of the training offered at my gym.

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Bahuyuddha
7/28/2007 3:27am,
Welcome to Bullshido!

Thanks.



As a fellow beginner, I'd recommend the following threads:

Training, Stagnation and Tapping (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=974042)
Maximizing what you get out of rolling (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1253088)
Protecting Yourself During Sparring (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1234198)
Grappling Basic Principles (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20609)
First Day Lesson (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1232603)
Fundamental 5 (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1019474)

And the following articles:

Starting BJJ Classes (http://www.grapplearts.com/Starting-BJJ-Classes.htm)
Nuggets of Advice (http://www.aesopian.com/127/nuggets-of-advice/)
Wow, lots of good reading here. I haven't gotten through all of it yet, but it will definitely be useful when I inevitably end up taking BJJ lessons. Great stuff.

Thanks Slideyfoot.

-B

Roidie McDouchebag
7/28/2007 4:04am,
You can't, but here's a technique I like to combine with my sprawl. I hook with my lead while stepping back with the same-side foot into a southpaw stance, then hook again, stepping back with my (now leading) right and stepping back into orthodox stance. This hopefully fills the space your opponent's head is entering with a fist. If he's shooting for a single leg, he gets hit and cannot reach the now removed lead leg. If he's moving into the clinch you MIGHT be able to hit him and move away.

This is no way to AVOID grappling, because you WILL miss and WILL be taken down a large percentage of the time, but it's a way to give yourself a chance at moving away while striking effectively, but ONLY IF HE'S GOING FOR THE TAKEDOWN. If he isn't, he might just smash you, so guess right.

jnp
7/28/2007 9:25am,
It's already been said, but it bears repeating. You need to train grappling to beat a grappler.


If the guy makes the mistake of shooting for a takedown from distance throw a thrust knee to his face. From a distance you can see it coming and either a knee to the face or a sprawl is your best bet if you have no grappling skills.
No offense, but catching somebody with a knee as they come in is a low percentage move compared to a good sprawl. In my opinion, the OP would be better off learning how to sprawl effectively. In fact, I'd say sprawling is probably one of the first thing a non-grappler should learn to decrease his chances of being taken down.

Additionally, a thorough understanding of the clinch and the grips used by grapplers in the clinch to set up takedowns would also be a good start.

This way, you'll learn how to defend against takedowns from the clinch as well as takedowns from standing range. Heh, it sounds so easy typed out like that. In reality, it will take at least a year (depending on time spent training, quality of instruction, etc.) of good practice to defend against a proficient takedown artist.

Tango M.F.
7/28/2007 9:31am,
Slideyfoot, if I was able I would + rep you for that post, thanks for putting that link list together.

Bahuyuddha
7/28/2007 1:10pm,
...
Additionally, a thorough understanding of the clinch and the grips used by grapplers in the clinch to set up takedowns would also be a good start.
...

Thanks JNP,

Are you referring to a Muay Thai style clinch here?

-B

Roidie McDouchebag
7/28/2007 1:45pm,
NO. He ISN'T.

jnp
7/28/2007 2:29pm,
Cracky is correct. I wouldn't presume to give advice in any kind of striking context. That isn't my specialty.

I was referring to the greco-roman clinch used in wrestling.

WestonE123
7/28/2007 3:24pm,
It may seem low percentage because most grapplers aren't arrogant enough to shoot from a distance. Although I have seen a few Gracies try it.

Thats also why I said combine feints, because if you are striking well they will get frustrated and look for a takedown. And this happens all the time. I've seen a lot of fights end this way. Of course, the striker had been taken down a few times already but the grappler hadn't been able to catch him in anything, thus adding to the frustration and predictability. This is why I said drill the basics so you have a better chance of escaping.


And yes, sprawling is the number one way to go if your going to avoid the ground game. I prolly didn't emphasize that one enough (although I did mention it) because its not as sexay.

Roidie McDouchebag
7/28/2007 6:42pm,
Taking a page from Chuck Liddell's book (actually, my first post in the thread already did, so taking another one) sprawling is important, but not the MOST important thing. The most important is getting back up once you've been taken down. You only learn that by learning guard play.

Also, the knee is low percentage EVEN WHEN they shoot from across the ring, and if it lands, it must land square or risk having little to no effect, and even if it DOES land square, ala Sherk/Franca, it's still no higher percentage than a punch, but carries far more risk (being taken down into a **** position instead of guard).