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shinbushi
7/25/2007 2:12pm,
From http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69837

I have started this thread so we can discuss (in an isolated environment) some of the issues that we as instructors face when teaching women to protect themselves.

It is no secret that there has been widespread criticism of the methods of the Bujinkan by various "alive proponents." In a recent thread , kusa posted links to footage of the ISR Matrix form of training.

Those links can be found here:

http://www.isrmatrix.org/videos/isrle25mb.wmv
http://www.isrmatrix.org/videos/ISRPM_clipDSL.wmv
http://www.isrmatrix.org/

In response, I posted a critique of the footage .

There were sixth components to my response.

First, that the movement in the video was focused on "getting the lock" rather than controlling the spatial terrain and the balance of the opponent

Second, Taijutsu is *NOT* about leverage.

Third, an acknowledgement that the movement can be learned in relatively short amount of time (which is *GOOD* for certain situations, such as when you have little time with someone and need to get a few simple things ingrained).

Fourth, that this type of training is "effective" for those who work out every day and stay in top physical condition.

Fifth, that this type of training is *NOT* very "functional" (a claim of its proponents) for over 50% of the population (i.e., women).

And Sixth, if one trains in this way that you will never understand Hatsumi-sensei's budo (in my opinion).

I'd like to focus on claim four, because it has caused some controversy (evidently).

I personally do not feel that the type of training shown in the video would be particularly functional for a majority of women (or people over 45 for that fact). I acknowledge that there *ARE* exceptions, but I am not talking about Laila Ali here. I am talking about "normal people."

As a human species, there are several things that distinguish men from women. Setting aside reproductive or hormonal differences, women face several hurdles as a result of those differences when faced off toe-to-toe in a punching match with men.

The first and most important is physical size. Humans, like Gorillas, show (on average) a large disparity in size between members of the male sex and members of the female sex than many animals.

With size comes mass, this includes bone weight and muscle mass. Both of which become "force multipliers" all else held equal.

As someone who has seen first-hand women battered at the hands of their husbands, it is clear (to me) that trying to go toe-to-toe in a punching match with a man is a sure way for a women to get disfigured (seen it) or killed (had to be stopped at gunpoint).

Trying to force a technique on through strength or speed is simply asking for a lot of unnecessary work and potential harm to self.

As I have described, good Taijutsu is not about leverage. As DWeidman described, if you offset the mass held up by the legs, it is a heckuva lot easier to "get something on" someone, than if the opponent has his/her legs under him/her.

The traditional way in the Bujinkan of handling this issue is to physically manipulate someone (create "kuzushi") then apply the technique, such as a lock. I believe that Hatsumi-sensei has gone even further in his movement and now does not even physically manipulate people; he instead manipulates the spatial terrain, which by default, manipulates the person. This is what I mean when I talk about manipulating the kukan (or playing with "kukan balls").

I believe that teaching "getting on techniques" such as that seen in the ISR Matrix video *WITHOUT* a concerted effort to teach either "kuzushi creation" or "kukan manipulation" is simply irresponsible and potentially *VERY DANGEROUS* to women, a majority of the human population.

I honestly believe that the average women (not Vasquez from "Aliens") will find herself in grave danger if she tries to leverage a technique on an angry male who (on average) will be significantly larger and stronger than she is.

I think it is far more wise to use intellect, technology, and intuition to help women keep from (1) getting into dangerous situations in the first place, and (2) escaping dangerous situations, than it is to have them strapping on gloves and trading punches with 25-year-old cage fighters.

Your mileage may vary.

-ben

Eldarbong
7/25/2007 2:15pm,
So this means if I try to force myself on Kyra Gracie or Gina Carano I have nothing to fear? Sweet!

Matt W.
7/25/2007 2:18pm,
If someone is too old, infirm, or female (lol) to train in an alive manner, they're much better off just jogging/walking for fitness and buying some pepper spray. The answer IS NOT, "well, then if you can't train right, just use these deadly eye gouges."

shinbushi
7/25/2007 2:19pm,
You forgot how many brothers she has :icon_wink

artard
7/25/2007 2:21pm,
I was going to type out a response about how I weigh less than 140 and can easily hold side control and mount on opponents who weigh 250 or more but have less skill than me but I guess according to his logic I am only able to do this because I'm male but **** it he's just really dumb

Virus
7/25/2007 2:22pm,
Women need to use wrist-locks on men.

shinbushi
7/25/2007 2:22pm,
If someone is too old, infirm, or female (lol) to train in an alive manner, they're much better off just jogging/walking for fitness and buying some pepper spray. The answer IS NOT, "well, then if you can't train right, just use these deadly eye gouges."
Hell doesn't Helio and Judo Gene still roll with their students?

musicalmike235
7/25/2007 2:23pm,
If someone is too old, infirm, or female (lol) to train in an alive manner, they're much better off just jogging/walking for fitness and buying some pepper spray. The answer IS NOT, "well, then if you can't train right, just use these deadly eye gouges." No, pepper spray is not reliable. They would be better off buying a gun. :new_snipe

HappyOldGuy
7/25/2007 2:23pm,
It's not even eye gouges. If I'm translating this right, it's "women can never beat men in a physical fight, so they should practice chi balls."

musicalmike235
7/25/2007 2:24pm,
It's not even eye gouges. If I'm translating this right, it's "women can never beat men in a physical fight, so they should practice chi balls."
Do you have the "chi ballz" to back that up? LOL

Kintanon
7/25/2007 2:28pm,
Obviously it is my massive wang which allows to me sweep guys with 100lb weight advantages from halfguard... If a girl tried that she would clearly fail due to wanglessness.

artard
7/25/2007 2:29pm,
well having a massive wang does help keep your center of gravity lower so you can't be swept as easily...

musicalmike235
7/25/2007 2:32pm,
Does your wang hang low, does it wobble to the flo...

Matt W.
7/25/2007 2:33pm,
No, pepper spray is not reliable. They would be better off buying a gun.

What are you, 12? First of all, pepper spray is reliable. "Reliable" does not, however, mean "full proof, works every time." So, please spare me your anecdotes (that most likely you just "heard off" anyway) of how "this one time, this dude got pepper sprayed, like 20 times and just kept coming!!!Eleventy11!. " Pepper spray is far more reliable than deadly kung fu moves and requires relatively little training to be able to employ.

Second of all, firearms are great. However, it is never a good idea to blanket recommend "just get a gun". Though carrying is an excellent self defense alternative for many people (particularly those who really are lacking in the physical fitness department, as discussed in the OP) it is not always legal to do so. Furthermore, there are many people for whom carrying a gun would endanger themselves and others as much as a bad guy.

Truthfully, I usually use the phrase "appropriately armed" instead of recommending anything specific. Wouldn't you know it that the one time I don't, some numbnutz decides to pick nits over how effective pepper spray is.

nifoc
7/25/2007 2:36pm,
I believe that Hatsumi-sensei has gone even further in his movement and now does not even physically manipulate people; he instead manipulates the spatial terrain, which by default, manipulates the person. This is what I mean when I talk about manipulating the kukan (or playing with "kukan balls").

WTF?!?
Is this ninjer clinically insane, or what's his excuse? Is he actually saying that he believes that Hatsumi can bend space-time? Does he also belive that Hiro (from Heroes) is based off Hatsumi then?

musicalmike235
7/25/2007 2:39pm,
What are you, 12? First of all, pepper spray is reliable. "Reliable" does not, however, mean "full proof, works every time." So, please spare me your anecdotes (that most likely you just "heard off" anyway) of how "this one time, this dude got pepper sprayed, like 20 times and just kept coming!!!Eleventy11!. " Pepper spray is far more reliable than deadly kung fu moves and requires relatively little training to be able to employ.

Second of all, firearms are great. However, it is never a good idea to blanket recommend "just get a gun". Though carrying is an excellent self defense alternative for many people (particularly those who really are lacking in the physical fitness department, as discussed in the OP) it is not always legal to do so. Furthermore, there are many people for whom carrying a gun would endanger themselves and others as much as a bad guy.

Truthfully, I usually use the phrase "appropriately armed" instead of recommending anything specific. Wouldn't you know it that the one time I don't, some numbnutz decides to pick nits over how effective pepper spray is. No I am 18 and the only reason I say that pepper spray isn't reliable is because a lot of people in the really rough areas can be so determined when they are angry that pepper spray will only make them angrier. And even if that is a rare situation or you simply don't believe those stories, if you have a gun, and you pull it out, more often than not, the guy just gives up out of fear of death. Thereby you defend yourself without sheding any blood. This cannot be said of pepper spray.