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Mas
6/28/2007 2:01pm,
I've been doing Judo for a year and change, and last night I got my first night where I could cross style spar with someone.

My Judo Club and I were essentially putting together a demonstration showing Judo to all the incoming freshman at our university, we just do basic throws, talk about Judo and have a few kids throw us. The karate club was there as well, showcasing their stuff.

Well anyways, at the end of the night I wanted to spar with one of the karate guys. I figured that one of the lesser belts would have at me, but to my surprise the black belt did. So I donned the WKA sanctioned gloves (which are extremely shitty for grappling I found) and stepped onto the mat.

I stand around 5'9 (on a good day) and weigh in ~ 180 lbs. The black belt was probably around the same weight but he probably has a good, 4 to 5 inches on me.

I would like to state that I have never, in my entire life, done any striking of any kind whatsoever. My plan was essentially to clinch or shoot, throw, then submit ftw.

First Sequence: I threw some quick jabs and crosses that didn't connect (surprise surprise) but I did get him with some (shitty) Thaiesque kicks to the outside leg.

I was only going about 50%, but I know he felt them as he commented on them later. I don't think he's ever had experience in leg kicks before and for some reason I don't think he thought they would hurt.

I went for the clinch and his striking from there was for the most part ineffective. I went for O soto Gari and fell on him (ouch), went to side control (kesa gatame) and then realized I couldn't really do anything from there but pin him.

He laughed while in side control and and asked me "What can I do?", meaning eye gouge or spine attack ok? I said, "No eye gouges but spine is ok."

So he tried teh spine anti grapple, and hey, guess what? It didn't work.

I got ippon in Judo rules, but went knee-belly then mount. But he bridged and rolled out, I took his back and got a sloppy rnc that became a tight rnc, we stood up soon after.

Second Sequence: More thaiesque kicks to outer leg from me, he kept me away with front and side kicks, that were longer than both my legs put together. I "jabbed" (using the term loosely here) tried to keep him at distance and worry about my hands.

I feinted a jab and shot for his legs. It failed. I pulled guard and went for triangle (sankaku jime), didn't quite get it as I didn't go to the side enough.

I also forgot I could punch this whole sequence.

In any case I let go of the triangle and somehow ended up with his legs in my face, then went for an achilles lock, then a knee bar. I didn't get either (those gloves are terrible). At that point we stood up again, as it was a stalemate of kinds.

Third Sequence: At this point I was tired, I had a two hour class before all this, did a lot of throws and randori for the froshers, and I had no stand up experience. No excuses, but I'm painting a picture of my suckitude here.

A couple sloppy jabs and a TERRIBLE shoot later, I do the unthinkable. I turtled once he kind of got my back.

I cannot believe it.

I turtled.

What a dumbass thing to do.

So he wailed on my head for awhile and I stood up and said "Ok that was fun." and we finished.

I felt a little bad, we meant to do light contact, but by the end we were probably going 70-80% by the end. I do feel bad, about going more than "light" and I didn't know what the rules of karate were exactly, but as we didn't talk about rules or anything beforehand I think I'm kinda in the clear about that.Afterwards it was cool and we agreed to do it again later in the week.

For my first cross training/striking experience, I have to say it went pretty well, it has shown me holes in my game that I need to work on, and also shown me that my striking is no match for a karate BB, and I should really get into MT or something.

Going to spar again with one of the krotty guys again tonight, we'll see how it goes I suppose.

Lujke
6/28/2007 2:23pm,
Sounds like a fun experience, Mas. Good going!

Guizzy
6/28/2007 2:23pm,
I suppose it shows that you were all a bit unconfortable with cross-style training. I suppose that a Judoka that trains with little or no expectations of being striken and a karateka that trains with little or no expectations of being thrown or grappled would both suck a little at first.

But that whole post made you come across as feeling guilty. However badly you think you did; don't! You've done cross-style sparring, which is like better than 80% of the Martial Arts world!

Matt W.
6/28/2007 2:30pm,
Cool story. IMO, you should have not worn gloves at all. Sure, you might have had to agree not to punch but then you would have been able to grip and grapple better. I'm assuming, of course, that all you had was those crappy dipped foam point sparring gloves...

And, even crappy non-Thai leg kicks > than no leg kicks. I was sparred a guy where I did TKD style instep roundhouse kicks to the leg. He couldn't handle them. And they were pathetic compared to the leg kicks of a real MT fighter.

kwoww
6/28/2007 2:42pm,
WKA? World Kickboxing Association?

You grappled with boxing gloves on?!

ojgsxr6
6/28/2007 2:46pm,
Worse 'World Karate Assoc." Next time do no gloves, no punches to the face.

Mas
6/28/2007 3:11pm,
Worse 'World Karate Assoc." Next time do no gloves, no punches to the face.
Exactly, yeah they were absolutely terrible!

They were those foam, padded, half mitt things.

JohnnyCache
6/29/2007 12:50am,
You can get some use out of those if you cut the finger guard down so you're barely holding it on w/1 finger, but that ruins them for some comps and YMMV... You could have also agreed to have bystanders strip your gloves after you hit the ground...

Wounded Ronin
6/29/2007 2:27am,
Well, sounds like an exceedingly fun exercise. Good times.

Sophist
6/29/2007 4:50am,
Quick advice on subs from kesa:
There are a couple of options involving threading their arm through your legs - either a straight armlock across the thigh or a bent one tucked up under your further forward leg. Kesa's not got as many high-percentage subs as many other positions, but you ought to have a chance of nailing something versus a karate guy. Assuming right-handed kesa, push the arm out with your left hand and bring your leg up and over it.

Also, if they bring their arm back across when you're trying to push it out, you can shove it across their face and go into kata-gatame, which works as an arm triangle (or, done clumsily, as a neck crank).
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/osaekomi/kata_gatame.gif

I personally prefer kuzure-kesa-gatame, with the underhook on the far side. There are better sub options available and you can also straightforwardly transition back into mune gatame, BJJ side control. (Kesa is generally called "scarf hold" in BJJ).
Kuzure-kesa:
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/osaekomi/kuzure_kesa_gatame.gif
Mune:
http://web1.vattnet.com/judo/katamewaza/munegatame.html

What subs are you good with?

Also, it sounds very much like you shoot like a judo guy. When you got to the clinch in the first round you threw him and dominated. Your shooting mostly got you in trouble. Go for the clinch if you possibly can.

BackFistMonkey
6/29/2007 5:12am,
sometimes it is hard not to shoot ...expecialy in new situations . I find myself shooting just to see what happens in friendly sessions . Which is really funny considering I don't have a shoot .

* shrugs * sad but true .


Sounds like you did ok . Congrats and keep at it .

( just for the record most Karate instructors would never just let some random judo sport fighter spar with one of his/her uncontrolled yet killer colored belts . )

Grashnak
6/29/2007 6:44am,
First Sequence: I threw some quick jabs and crosses that didn't connect (surprise surprise) but I did get him with some (shitty) Thaiesque kicks to the outside leg.

I was only going about 50%, but I know he felt them as he commented on them later. I don't think he's ever had experience in leg kicks before and for some reason I don't think he thought they would hurt.


Great story. I'm confused though. I've never done Karate, but shouldn't someone with a black belt in a striking art have at least a passing familiarity with leg kicks? What exactly DO they train you to kick at in Karate?

I'd be interested in hearing what techniques he was throwing your way while the standup was going on.

Kintanon
6/29/2007 7:20am,
Leg kicks aren't legal in most karate/TKD competitions. Kicking is trained to the body mostly with an emphasis on head kicks in a lot of schools. The legs aren't usually considered a vulnerable target by Karate/TKD folks so striking them is considered a waste of time.

BackFistMonkey
6/29/2007 7:32am,
The legs aren't usually considered a vulnerable target by Karate/TKD folks so striking them is considered a waste of time.

I exploit the hell out of this . It sucks when I cross people who know better .


:(

Grashnak
6/29/2007 7:40am,
Leg kicks aren't legal in most karate/TKD competitions. Kicking is trained to the body mostly with an emphasis on head kicks in a lot of schools. The legs aren't usually considered a vulnerable target by Karate/TKD folks so striking them is considered a waste of time.

I see... Is this mostly because of point fighting? I can't see anyone sparring full contact for very long without realizing that head kicks are a bad idea in most cases. Having absorbed a few amateurish leg kicks from my fellow MT noobs, my mostly ignorant opinion is that only someone whose never been kicked in the leg could consider it to not be vulnerable.

Ouch.

Guizzy
6/29/2007 9:46am,
I see... Is this mostly because of point fighting? I can't see anyone sparring full contact for very long without realizing that head kicks are a bad idea in most cases. Having absorbed a few amateurish leg kicks from my fellow MT noobs, my mostly ignorant opinion is that only someone whose never been kicked in the leg could consider it to not be vulnerable.

Ouch.
Kyokushin; head kicks all the time, full contact sparring.

But it's true they do have a limitation in that they can't punch to the head. But kicks up there are fine, and they mostly seem to be able to apply them when the fertilizer collides with the ventilation apparatus.