PDA

View Full Version : Unrealistic Jeet Kune Do Concepts Techniques



Jerry_Goldman
6/28/2007 6:05am,
Hello all, I am new to the martial arts. I have been practicing JKD concepts for only a few months. I just have a few questions and am wanting to get some opinions on some questions I am wanting to ask. First off, does drills like hubud, sumbrada, and numerada help develop any attributes in empty hands and weapons. I have done such drills and I suck ass at them. I have watched dog brothers stick fighting matches and dont see any such things as hubud or all the fancy disarms. I tell my instructor such things dont relate to real fighting or sparring this and he tells me such drills are necessary and develop attributes such as timing, coordination, and distancing and that I need to do these drills more. Is my instructor off his rocker?
Second, my instructor makes us do complex JKD trapping and crossada drills. I dont see things like this pulled off in the UFC, Pride, Full Contact Muay Thai matches, Savate, or even full contact karate. If gunting or crossada was effective, wouldnt arts like Muay Thai, Boxing, Savate, or MMA have Adopted them. My instructor tells me they are effective and that I need more training in such techniques to make them work. Again, is he being unrealistic.
Third, my instructor does isolation training. Like making us work on the JAB for 4 to six months and no other techniques thrown in except for bobbing, slipping, and weaving. This the only type of sparring we are allowed to do for six months then we can add a cross for a few months, then an uppercut, then a hook, and so forth. Is this type of training bullcrap? I think this type of training serves no purpose as it slows my learning down and doesnt teach a person to fight in combinations early on his or her training?
I can count on one hand of all the sparring hours I have done in the last four months as he has been only working us on focus mitts, hubud, sumbrada, numerada and such drills. I have yet to spar with full techniques after almost one year of training. Is it time to get a new instructor? I havent been in fight since grade school and honestly dont know if my instructor is bullshitting me!

Askari
6/28/2007 6:47am,
Sounds like you have already made your decision based on your vast experience "watching others."

Good luck with that.

plasma
6/28/2007 7:11am,
If you want to do MMA or Escrima (Dog Brothers) Just go find another school and stop complaining.

ViciousFlamingo
6/28/2007 7:25am,
Get yourself to a good MMA gym, do some training there, and then decide for yourself.

WhiteShark
6/28/2007 7:56am,
This is not a MABS quality post. Read the stickies next time. I'm sure the dark overlord will move this soon.

cyrijl
6/28/2007 8:22am,
this belongs in newbietown...plasma, no need to flame him.

Ryno
6/28/2007 11:19am,
Hubud is just kind of funny. I do similar type motions on occasion, but feel that drilling it incessently is kind of a waste of time. To be honest, it's very Wing Chun-esque in the stand-there-and-race-hands kind of way which isn't practical most real fights. It works great if someone is stupid enough to leave their weapon or arm outstretched in the middle of a fight, and you need to clear it. It would perhaps be useful if someone were trying to push you back with one hand to punch with the other. But against anyone with some decent boxing skill, where they actually retract their arms and don't overcommit to a punch, it is fairly useless. I'd look at it as a basic coordination drill, but not much more.

Sumbrada, or counter-for-counter offense/defense type of drills have some use in forcing you to examine your position after every attack. I do like them for this. But they tend to get very flow-ey, and tend to **** up your timing if you train them exclusively. I also disagree with just standing there in front of someone at medium range doing flow drills as they are often taught. If you always do this, and someone suddenly steps out, or in, or changes levels and rushes, you will not be prepared. To be trained properly, range should vary consistently. As you advance, the timing should also vary so that you don't get in this stupid little dancy rythm every time you swing a stick. Dancing is not fighting.

Numerada type drills are good for examining form and experimenting with combinations. But they can also build a false sense of security as the attacker feeds a single attack, then the defender flurries counters. It's not realistic, but it can be a good starting point when trying to get newer folks moving properly.

At my club, we tend to introduce things gently, then gear up and try to execute them under increasingly harder pressure. In the case of numerada (we call it the serrada drill in my system), it'll start with the defender blocking and flurrying against a simple static attack. Then they put a helmet on, and they defend and flurry against a simple aggressive attack with follow through. After that, they'll defend and counter against an aggressive two-strike combination attack. Then it'll pretty much be free sparring with one person playing attacker, the other person playing defense/counterpuncher. Next would be free sparring with stick hits only, and this evolves into free sparring with no restrictions where you can use punches, kicks, clenching, takedowns, etc.

Isolation training can be fine if done in moderation, to focus on a certain technique and get better at it. The amount that you describe seems excessive, and might not be the best idea.

Disarms and trapping make up such a small portion of combat that they should not be a huge focus in your training. You can't just decide "Hey, I think I'll disarm this guy next time he swings.", as your opponent will tend not to cooperate. Disarms are techniques of opportunity. Occasionally as I spar, I'll get ahold of a stick or jam a guy up really cleanly, which is when disarms fit in nicely if you've learned them. But I never just try snatching disarms out of the air, as it's a damn good way to get your hands hit.

For trapping, see my commentary on hubud. I do trap people up occasionally if they completely screw up their hand position, but it is a technique of momentary transition that is only to allow me to get a good shot in. If someone is trying to play the trappy trappy game with me, I'll step back and hit them in the hands with my stick, or will push forward to bump them or get clench and/or throw them. Being a bigger guy, even with some decent trapping skills, it just isn't in my best interests to stand there and play this silly little hand racing game of trapping.

The trapping range is so small that it can very quickly be cleared by angling out or rushing in. Hand fighting for traps only works against an opponent who's trying to stay at that same range and is playing the same game. Taking this into consideration, I see it as a secondary or terciary tool in my technique bag. Occasionally it's useful but to be honest, it's pretty much common sense. If a guy's hand is in the way of the target that you want to whack, then just move it. Or in the case of stickfighting, you can just hit that hand instead, and as it pulls away follow up to your preferred target once it is clear.

jkdbuck76
6/28/2007 11:29am,
Our jkd concepts class USED to look like what the OP described, but not as bad.
After our instructor found out about SBG and aliveness, it looks more like an
MMA class. We've always had bjj grappling....just needed to change how we
trained stand up.

So....should you leave your JKD class if you want more sparring....sounds like
the answer is YES unless your instructor decides to switch it up.

Is your instructor a Paul Vunak instructor?

Wolf
6/28/2007 11:36am,
This is not a MABS quality post. Read the stickies next time. I'm sure the dark overlord will move this soon.

nope, beat him to it...hmmm, I need a fancy, fear inspiring title...oh wait already got it.

From Bell2Bell
6/28/2007 11:49am,
Third, my instructor does isolation training. Like making us work on the JAB for 4 to six months and no other techniques thrown in except for bobbing, slipping, and weaving. This the only type of sparring we are allowed to do for six months then we can add a cross for a few months, then an uppercut, then a hook, and so forth. Is this type of training bullcrap?


I won't comment on the rest because I don't know anything about it, but the jab is a great tool, and the way to get good at it is to focus on it. I guess what's best depends on the individual but I guarantee you that you will be grateful for the time you spent on jabs and head movement. At my gym noobs (and more experienced people as well) frequently spar with nothing but the jab. There's nothing wrong with this.

mijuil
6/28/2007 12:09pm,
sounds like you should just get together with some friends and spar with mma gloves and a mouthguard. thatll show u fairly quickly what works and what doesnt - except the trapping range sensitivity stuff. that wont work with gloves on, but u could try going without gloves while your opponent has gloves and is trying to pummel u.

Teh El Macho
6/28/2007 12:14pm,
sounds like you should just get together with some friends and spar with mma gloves and a mouthguard. thatll show u fairly quickly what works and what doesnt - except the trapping range sensitivity stuff. that wont work with gloves on, but u could try going without gloves while your opponent has gloves and is trying to pummel u.Uhmmm, no. He'd be better served by joining a MMA gym and train under qualified instruction.

FictionPimp
6/28/2007 12:25pm,
Uhmmm, no. He'd be better served by joining a MMA gym and train under qualified instruction.

In the very least, they should probably wear shorts or pants.

knutorious
8/01/2007 2:58pm,
he tells me such drills are necessary and develop attributes such as timing, coordination, and distancing and that I need to do these drills more. Is my instructor off his rocker?

This stuff is too essential to ignore. Obsess about them every now and then




Third, my instructor does isolation training. Like making us work on the JAB for 4 to six months and no other techniques thrown in except for bobbing, slipping, and weaving. This the only type of sparring we are allowed to do for six months then we can add a cross for a few months, then an uppercut, then a hook, and so forth. Is this type of training bullcrap? I think this type of training serves no purpose as it slows my learning down and doesnt teach a person to fight in combinations early on his or her training?
I can count on one hand of all the sparring hours I have done in the last four months as he has been only working us on focus mitts, hubud, sumbrada, numerada and such drills. I have yet to spar with full techniques after almost one year of training. Is it time to get a new instructor? I havent been in fight since grade school and honestly dont know if my instructor is bullshitting me!

Never stop refining your punches, but your coach's pace is really questionable. Take all those isolation exercises and what not, find your self a bag and start blending them all. If it comes easily then the training paid off, if it doesn't then there your sensei's reason for such extended drills. It took me quite a while to gain sweet moves with the boxing portion.

CX1329
8/01/2007 4:31pm,
sounds like you should just get together with some friends and spar with mma gloves and a mouthguard. thatll show u fairly quickly what works and what doesnt - except the trapping range sensitivity stuff. that wont work with gloves on, but u could try going without gloves while your opponent has gloves and is trying to pummel u.


That's great advice, if you want him to lose his friends and/or get hurt.

And I shake my head at those calling MMA a martial art. :dd:

But on topic, your school sounds okay to me, you spar and that's more than what can be said for many other schools.

Jayy
8/12/2007 6:45pm,
Like the man said sounds like the dude has made up his mind already. But like the other dude said about the jab that is very much needed in jkd if you don't have it then you will have lost a battle due to your own negligence. Don't quarrel with your instructor get the book THE TOA OF JKD Jeet Kune Do. Engulf yourself in JKD. Practice, Practice, Practice.