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Aikiwriter
8/30/2003 12:00pm,
I've seen a lot of talk about the multiple attacker scenario, but mostly it's been bashing of another art that does or does not seem to practice it. As one always curious about other styles, how does your school/style handle preparing for that scenario? I'm looking for answers from all types of styles; Judo, BJJ, Wing Tsun, SCARS, Escrima, Aikido, Karate... whatever. How do you train for it, and what do you think would give you enough advantage to survive the encounter?

And I'd love this to be a mutual sharing of information, as opposed to bashing on another's way of training.

Omega Supreme
8/30/2003 12:05pm,
Take largest guy and take them out with extreme prejudice in under 1 second....watch all his friends stand there and look stupid....

and yes I've done this.

Multiple person will always depend on the individual not the art.

Official WTDude Badass Evil Genius

Aikiwriter
8/30/2003 12:19pm,
That's very interesting. A similar story was told on an aikido forum I belong to as well, where the first attacker was quickly taken out. The other two scattered when the MAist said "Next!"

So intimidation can be a successful tool in multiple attacker situations. Good to know that the movies are wrong when every skinny thug in the bar attacks Aronold Schwarzinegger, even though he's just dropped the resident badass.

I do understand that most arts work only because of individual skill, but I was just curious if other styles had multiple attacker drills. In aikido we do randori, which concentrates on flow and awareness. I wanted to know if other styles were similar.



Edited by - aikiwriter on August 30 2003 12:19:46

Punisher
8/30/2003 12:27pm,
Aikiwriter,

Here is a link to a recent topic in the TMA forum that deals with what you want:

http://www.bullshido.us/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5343&FORUM_ID=17&CAT_ID=11&Topi c_Title=4+SIDES+AND+4+CORNERS+%28continued%29&Foru m_Title=Traditional+Martial+Arts+Discussion

Also Pizdoff wrote a pretty good article detailing what he thinks are the key points when dealing with multiples.

Punisher
8/30/2003 12:31pm,
Sorry,

That's actually the link to the topic about Pizdoff's article.

The original topic was title 4 side and 4 corners and can be found here:

http://www.bullshido.us/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5252&FORUM_ID=17&CAT_ID=11&Topi c_Title=4+SIDES+AND+4+CORNERS&Forum_Title=Traditio nal+Martial+Arts+Discussion

Aikiwriter
8/30/2003 12:39pm,
Punisher,

Yes, that article and thread had some very good advice about what to do in a multiple attacker situation, a lot of which corresponds to my own randori training, but I was just curious as to what insitutional multiple attacker training was done to prepare for it.

That way, when I'm talking to someone about MA and they say something about another style's training methods I can turn around and say "Well, I have it on good authority that BJJers DO train for multiples!" and I can discuss it with some facts behind me.

Just tryin' to attain a position of knowledge. :)

Aikiwriter
8/30/2003 12:44pm,
Ah, yes the second thread is a bit closer to what I was after. Thanks! I've only read the first page, but I'll finish it tonight.

Jenfucius
8/31/2003 12:04pm,
in WWI-jutsu, we set up a machine gun nest.

patfromlogan
8/31/2003 12:22pm,
In Kajukenbo we were taught to take out the SMALLEST guy because he'd have the most to prove in a fight. The other guys might not be as motivated. In Kyokushinkai we were taught just to kiaii loud and then say OSU!

Seriously though, a Kempo bb here took out a group of assholes who were beating a woman. He kicked two of them and then said to the others "what will it be boys, one at a time or all at once?" They left, and left their buddies on the ground. I've heard advice not to use kicks, but that's about all I'd use, kicks being my best techniques.

One bb tells a story of when a gang fought him in Texas and he nailed the first guy and thought the gang would be impressed and stop. They were impressed allright, they all jumped him. He ran and got away by doing a jumping dive roll over a hedge. So he always teaches dive rolls.

sanchin
8/31/2003 12:41pm,
Take out the one with the most mouth first- chances are some of the others don't want to get involved. If that fails get a weapon or run.

fuzzie
8/31/2003 1:28pm,
What i practice, Tsu Shin Gen (karate.. sortof.. we might have been expelled
from the International Budo Kaikan.. for suceeding too well i guess :) and
shootfighting, we practice no multiple attackers. In all fairness, most MA's
that practice on an even soft mat with good lighting and one opponent are not
true self-defence MA's.

Now, i know many will take this as flame-bait. But seriously, if there is no
defence against weapons or multiple attackers, it will not be enough no matter
how strong your wushu is when they rush you. Please note that this is not a fundemental truth, since ive seen MA'a as sport oriented as judo being used succesfully in SD-situations (against single opponents, granted).

Excuse me if this post is badly written. I have a sore throat and a fever
and it feels as if my brain is doing its best "titanic"-imitation and trying
to sink down to my stomach with each tap of the key.

DRD
8/31/2003 3:23pm,
We train for multi attack situations by using my alley walk set-up. You enter one end and anyone or more can and will attack you while you are in the alley, and you must do what it takes to get out the other end.

What works about it is that you don't get any warning of what will be done, be it a takedown attempt, gang jump, strikes and so on. It helps to train to handle the adrenaline dump, and makes you use your full range of skills on a regular basis.

In what to do first, I also ascribe to the take out the most aggressive, mouthy and in your face first, but purposely make sure you don't always know who that is, so you have to defend based on what is thrown at you and from what direction, versus a specific identified target or threat.

It also helps to teach my people how to fall off from technique to technique in a rapid fashion based on expecting the unexpected.

I like it because it gets away from normal and formal sparring situations and puts you into one where you may very likely throw a punch of many variety, chop, lock, throw, sweep, elbow, joint destruction and so on in getting to the end of that alley.

Let me also say this; I support sparring in a controlled fashion at times for training the range of things you need to be proficient at, but also feel that you need to spar full contact,"Knock out level" every week.

Very quickly, you will have no fear of brutal contact, blood, aches and pains, and can see where you are best able to employ your skills in a winner walk away situation.

For those who already know what I mean, you will be very surprised at your self confidence level if you have to put your skills to the test for real.

It is not bragging to feel that you hope the other guy does not force you to hurt him if he will not back it down, it is just being prepared and believing what you know will prevail because you test it on those who can also do real damage on a regular and ongoing basis.

BTW, I'm very glad to see you guys get together and enjoy sharing what you know and getting what others know also.

My entire system is based on respecting what all arts have to offer, and I will say again that I have never seen an art that a great practicioner cannot destroy someone with if trained in it to defend oneself.

DRD

Aikiwriter
8/31/2003 7:32pm,
All good stuff. In randori I've been taught that once you take an attacker down quickly pick the next guy and engage them, don't let them come at you.

The responses have been good. Keep 'em coming!

tallpaul50
8/31/2003 10:18pm,
We practice defending against multiple opponents periodically and in different environments. We will take folding chairs and place them around tables to simulate a bar setting (crowded conditions), use the alley behind the dojo (had the cops stop once and ask what the hell we were doing! lol), etc.

The one place I've always had good luck with and like to use for multiple attackers is a corner. Weird, huh? Let me tell you why I like it and have had good luck with it.

1. You have only a 45 degree angle that an opponent can attack you from. Your back and most of your sides are covered by the walls.

2. You have incredible stability while leaning slightly against a wall. Also, because you are in a solid, stable base, you have very strong kicks.

3. Attackers can't come at you 2+ at a time because there just isn't room, and if you know what you're doing, and can make people get in the way of their friends that are also coming after you, they end up defeating themselves in a sense, or rather, helping in your defense.

4. We use our shins for blocking kicks (yes, it hurts until you get those knees conditioned to take the blow), and while leaning against the wall, I will raise one leg and move it slightly off center which effectively protects my groin, lower torso and knees. It also leaves the leg chambered and ready to throw a short, quick low front snap kick, roundhouse or side kick (we NEVER kick higher than the belt anyway) to an opponents knee, shin, lower torso or groin.

5. While leaning back into the wall, you have both hands and one leg free to block, or strike, and you can push off the wall (very solid foundation) if you want to lunge and strike, then retreat back to your nice, cozy and safe corner.

6. It is nearly impossible, unless they grab your leg and start pulling you away from your corner, for a person to take me down. While they are trying, I'm leaning back on the wall for support and not worrying about my balance, and freely hitting the guy with punches, elbows, knees and feet.

Now, I realize that probably none, or most of you have tried this before, so before you go to tearing me apart, do me a favor. The next time you get a chance to do some sparring with some friends, find a corner and lean back into it. Don't lean back to far or you will be weak. I'm guessing not more than a 10-15 degree lean. Give it a try and play with it a bit.

Personally, when I do this against my students (2nd Dan and below) they have one hell of a time getting at me and doing any good.

He who dies with the most toys...still DIES!

deus ex machina
8/31/2003 10:38pm,
The one place I've always had good luck with and like to use for multiple attackers is a corner.

I'm sorry, but that's a load of ****.

~
danny

"That baby better watch his mouth. I rape kids like him as part of my warm-up for raping teenagers, grown men, and eventually charging rhinos." - Boyd

"Deus practices the love that dare not speak its name." - Samuel Browning

tallpaul50
8/31/2003 10:50pm,
"Do they ever just pick up said chairs and beat you with them? HARD?"

LOL..well, we've used chairs as weapons to defend against, and also to use against your opponent..so yes, I guess we have..but nom, not hard.

"I'm sorry, but that's a load of ****."

Well, like I said at the beginning, I've had good luck with it and tried to put why into words.
Have you tried it before deus ex machina? Or just can't picture it maybe?

He who dies with the most toys...still DIES!