PDA

View Full Version : Dojo yaburi



Pages : [1] 2

Mercurius
9/17/2002 10:53pm,
Dojo yaburi ("school challenge" for the non JMAists) is when an outsider visits a school and asks for a match with the sensei, but is required beforehand to work his way up through the ranks of students before he has an opportunity. I've heard something like this exists in other martial disciplines as well.

Although the practice was once commonplace, because we're all so very civil now (*cough*bullshit*cough*) it seems to have died out, much to my (as well as others', I'm sure) chagrin.

I know circumstances today in America or anywhere else for that matter are different than 100 or more years ago on Okinawa or wherever, but something like the dojo yaburi has too much utility and decorum for martial artists to allow it to be lost to history.

For arts that deserve more exposure than they're getting, or arts that are dying out that should be preserved, success with dojo yaburi could mean expansion or survival. For the martial arts community as a whole, the dojo yaburi could serve as a public, prominent pressure testing of a style's doctrine and principles.

Granted, there are some flaws in this idea. Modern dojo tend to cater to students who are only martial artists between the time they step in and out of the door, and thus wouldn't be suitable to defend a school. Beyond that, there would have to be rules, and for rules to be enforced, there would have to be a governing organization (how about Zen Chikyu Dojo Yaburi Renmei?) Also, there would have to be some way to bring together groups like CMA, KMA, SE Asian MA, and modern/American ("hybrid styles", for example) MA together.

With a governing organization, you could check if a local dojo was a member. If they weren't, you'd need to focus on other methods to check their merit, but if they were, you could ask or research their record.

The re-emergence of something like the dojo yaburi on a national scale has, I believe, great potential to foster communication & development between styles. It's kind of like how technology develops quickly during war, a martial art subject to frequent, measured matches (the results of which were used as a measurement of effectiveness) would have incentive to refine its technique and grow more effective.

Personally, I'm thinking about doing something to revive the tradition myself. Once I get a job as a teacher in a few years, I'll have time out the ass off for Christmas and Summer breaks, during which I'll travel (musa shugyo, anyone?) and see if I can't bring back a few dojo signs.

As always, any thoughts, criticisms, or ideas are welcome.

--------------------
And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gezere
9/18/2002 2:13am,
These type of challenges were common in other MA all over the world. Some were simple matches others were more serious. In JMA the lose of a challenge could mean closing the school. I really wish we still had them. It would thin the ranks of GMs and Sokemon running rampant. It would probably help MA be taken more seriously. Seeing a guy to took 2 years of some art, leave then becomes UBER MASTER of his own getting his teeth kicked in by someone with real talent and experience would be a delight. It would send a message that, "If you boast it you best be able to back it up."

Has for reviving the tradition. Well I am guilty of doing a bit of that. Not really a crusade but with schools that just plain pissed me off. There a nice story I could tell you about a certain school in OK.:)

Of some advice on you musa shugyo, I now used the term "walkabout" after the Aussie expression. PLAN AHEAD. Set up a communication with any school you wish to visit. Often if you show up to a school unnanounced you may not get what you are looking for. Also a good way to find good schools to visit is to talk to good MA. Good fighters tend to know each other or least were to find them.

Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!

Miguksaram
9/18/2002 2:02pm,
It would be interesting to see this, but I doubt it would ever happen. USA is the land of the lawsuits and this would be too much risk for any school owner to try and take on. Not so much of the losing part, but the fact that if the owner won, the loser could sue.

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.homestead.com/koreanma/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/jns1994/MSA.html

Miguksaram
9/18/2002 2:02pm,
It would be interesting to see this, but I doubt it would ever happen. USA is the land of the lawsuits and this would be too much risk for any school owner to try and take on. Not so much of the losing part, but the fact that if the owner won, the loser could sue.

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.homestead.com/koreanma/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/jns1994/MSA.html

matzahbal
9/18/2002 3:27pm,
Yeah, miguksaram has an excellent point. Most schools owners live in fear that their own students might sue them because they didn't perform a move right, fall down, sprain their wrist and sue. For a teacher to be able to allow somebody come in their school, kick that challenger's butt and not worry about getting sued he'd have to spend so much money on lawyer fees and paper work he'd probably have to shutdown his school.

"But some apes they gotta go, so we kill the ones we don't know" - 'Ape shall never kill Ape' by The Vandals

9chambers
9/19/2002 2:56am,
Part of me always wants to say .. hey, let the people train in crap. The more they suck the better chance I will have of defending myself against them if they get crazy.

Then another part says, it sucks that people are getting ripped off but hey ~ they should kind of figure it out eventually. Let the buyer beware.

Then another part says, people are losing their LIVES because of this ****! Someone stop them! Somebody SAVE THEM!

What is my responsability?

I could take the radical view and think I should be a vigilante and gun down those instructors who are teaching faulty tech to students and then sending them out to the wolves.

I could sit back and shake my head and do nothing too.

I could go somewhere in the middle ~ and try to educate people as much as I can. I could spread the word and do my best to be a friendly neighborhood hero standing up for the truth ~ or try to get published and go large-scale!

I could start a forum online .. and call it McDojo.com! Wait, that's been done. I guess that is what this place is - the middle ground between turning away and being a masked avenger. :P

Admin-Temp
9/20/2002 12:22pm,
My old Sifu, and his son (who now runs the Choy Lay Fut school), are always being challenged to Gong Sau matches. (Haven't lost yet that I know of.)

This is a VERY necessary component of martial arts, but today, especially in this country we can't really do things like this without fear of legal reprisals.

So what are the alternatives?

How about Mixed Martial Arts competition?

Mercurius
9/20/2002 6:15pm,
There's gotta be some way to ward off the legal fears, some sort of governing martial arts organization or standardized legal waiver.

I thought about stuff like MMA and tournaments, but it's competition more on a personal level than a school level, which might not achieve what I was hoping for.

In a tournament or just 1-on-1 MMA match, the only people the school has on the line are a few students and rarely the sensei. That way, it's easier to make excuses for poor performance.

But, a dojo yaburi, where you have to get past the lower ranks and beat all the senior students to even get a chance at the sensei, it's a lot easier to prove something conclusively as to the martial proficiency of the sensei and the quality of the art/how it's taught.

I don't know, maybe K-1 could charter some sort of dojo yaburi program, but then there's the risk of things becoming too commercialized...

--------------------
And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

9chambers
9/21/2002 4:08am,
make it a game show!

Matt Phillips
10/10/2014 9:45am,
Bump for relevance

Permalost
10/10/2014 11:50am,
I know circumstances today in America or anywhere else for that matter are different than 100 or more years ago on Okinawa or wherever, but something like the dojo yaburi has too much utility and decorum for martial artists to allow it to be lost to history.
Its kinda funny when a challenge is denied on the basis that "I have work on monday and can't show up injured", like accepting a challenge match in an era before modern healthcare and cushy jobs was so much easier.

BKR
10/10/2014 12:14pm,
Bump for relevance

I'd still like to see some sort of real reference to procedures and history(in "ye olde Japanone...) for "dojo yaburi/dojo arashi".

It seems kind of a romanticized thing in some aspects. Might even have been so in early Meji Japan...

Let's say the "sensei" (soke perhaps better term) is older/past his prime/injured or whatever and can't really physically represent his school effectively in actual combat.

As far as modern "dojo yaburi" goes, LOL at that...with modern laws/business ownership I don't see it as very practical.

So a MMA guy walks into our dojo, and challenges me. I have not any experience at striking. He is 25 years old, in great shape, and experienced. I'm 52, with arthritis, a fucked shoulder and out of shape. Plus,I don't own the dojo...although I am called the "sensei". My senior student on hand is a 14 year old sankyu...

Matt Phillips
10/10/2014 2:19pm,
I'd still like to see some sort of real reference to procedures and history(in "ye olde Japanone...) for "dojo yaburi/dojo arashi".

It seems kind of a romanticized thing in some aspects. Might even have been so in early Meji Japan...

Let's say the "sensei" (soke perhaps better term) is older/past his prime/injured or whatever and can't really physically represent his school effectively in actual combat.

As far as modern "dojo yaburi" goes, LOL at that...with modern laws/business ownership I don't see it as very practical.

So a MMA guy walks into our dojo, and challenges me. I have not any experience at striking. He is 25 years old, in great shape, and experienced. I'm 52, with arthritis, a fucked shoulder and out of shape. Plus,I don't own the dojo...although I am called the "sensei". My senior student on hand is a 14 year old sankyu...

Did you see the references I put up for you in the JMA thread?

Here: see The Heart of Kendo: A Comprehensive Introduction to the Philosophy and Practice of the Art of the Sword; Craig, DM, Shambhala Publications, 01/01/2003, ISBN: 9781590300145 p.24-25 and http://books.google.com/books?id=XJD...aburi%22&f=fal (http://books.google.com/books?id=XJDT2baaAZIC&pg=PA195&dq=%22dojo+yaburi%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=riM3VI2-HKvksATGyIGwBA&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22dojo%20yaburi%22&f=fal)

BKR
10/10/2014 4:38pm,
Its kinda funny when a challenge is denied on the basis that "I have work on monday and can't show up injured", like accepting a challenge match in an era before modern healthcare and cushy jobs was so much easier.

How about "I refuse to participate because it's ridiculous" ?

BKR
10/10/2014 4:39pm,
Did you see the references I put up for you in the JMA thread?

Here: see The Heart of Kendo: A Comprehensive Introduction to the Philosophy and Practice of the Art of the Sword; Craig, DM, Shambhala Publications, 01/01/2003, ISBN: 9781590300145 p.24-25 and http://books.google.com/books?id=XJD...aburi%22&f=fal (http://books.google.com/books?id=XJDT2baaAZIC&pg=PA195&dq=%22dojo+yaburi%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=riM3VI2-HKvksATGyIGwBA&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22dojo%20yaburi%22&f=fal)

Nope, I'm on here in between crap that keeps coming up at work.

Thanks !

Permalost
10/10/2014 5:21pm,
How about "I refuse to participate because it's ridiculous" ?

Acceptable, but being ridiculous isn't a great reason to avoid doing something.

My point was that "we can't just do death matches anymore like they used to" invokes an over-romanticized history of karate battles.