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Oculus
4/09/2007 9:56pm,
Hi,

New to this forum and I couldn't help noticing the Martial Art Sucks of the month.

Just wondering about the Akido Sucks video at 2:28. Does anybody know who was the guy in the black outfit (gi?) a Akido practitioner or was it another art? Just curious about the context of the video.

Thanks

OmegaBot
4/09/2007 9:57pm,
BULL RUSH ON Oculus!!!

Incorrigible 1
4/12/2007 12:07am,
According to the unreferenced information I can find online this man is called "Yanagi Ryuken", or "Yanagiryuken". The video descriptions (more unreferenced information) say he is a master of "Daitoryu-Aikido", a "Kiai Master", or a "Chi-Master".

I've practiced Aikido for over 7 years, which by no means makes me an authority. However, in that 7+ years I've never heard of "Daitoryu-Aikido". The only reference that I have been able to find to "Daitoryu-Aikido" is in reference to videos of this man.

I don't recognize anything this man does in the video[s] of him executing his art that resembles mainstream Aikido techniques. Even the most amateur Aikido videos I've seen online have recognizable components. Also, the video out there of him conducting a class looks nothing like any Aikido class I've every seen, participated in, or heard of.

So, what have we got? A couple of videos on the internet of a man doing something that is described by the video posters as Daitoryu-Aikido, an art on which I was unable to find any other information, that doesn't appear to share any semblance with mainstream Aikido techniques.

It is my opinion that what this man is doing is not Aikido. I'm not sure what he is doing. I do think it is obvious whatever he calls it doesn't in the end change what it is...

Sushi-Boy
4/12/2007 6:36am,
Could it have been Daito-ryu Aiki-Ju Jitsu?

PSanderson
4/12/2007 8:56am,
Could it have been Daito-ryu Aiki-Ju Jitsu?

If that guy holds a license from any extant branch of Daito-ryu, I will stand amazed.

I'm pretty sure he's just a poor crazy old man with a bunch of starry-eyed followers. Maybe he once did aikido, and took O-Sensei's somewhat abstract/subtle later demonstrations too literally?

I seem to recall that his students seemed remarkably athletic and able to take (entirely unnecessary) falls. Perhaps there was some sort of aikido background there?

If so, I will crown him the King of the Aikibunny Faction, and he's truly taken it to a new level. Usually, corrupt/fluffified aikido at least involves pantomiming techniques that could conceivably throw someone...

Oculus
4/12/2007 9:03am,
Thanks for the info. King Akibunny style it would seem then. Not sure i this is the appropriate place to ask or if I should start a new thread but I was wondering Incorrigible 1, seeing as you studied Aikido for 7 years so far how much the art teaches about counters to strikes?

PSanderson
4/12/2007 10:24am,
Not sure i this is the appropriate place to ask or if I should start a new thread but I was wondering Incorrigible 1, seeing as you studied Aikido for 7 years so far how much the art teaches about counters to strikes?
I've only studied aikido for about 4 years (still only 3rd kyuu), but I'll take a try at a preliminary answer.

There's some variance between individuals, schools, and styles, but the vast majority of aikido does not involve countering kicks, knees, boxing-style punches, or elbows. (Can it be applied to these attacks? Very likely. But it's rarely done.) As a Muay Thai person, you might find something interesting in the footwork and principles, but you almost certainly have a better grasp of how to handle punches and kicks than an aikidoka of comparable experience.

Orthodox aikido contains a few standard striking techniques, and many techniques are counters to them. They have (for whatever reason; it's debated) very little to do with modern pugilism.

* Shomenuchi ("front strike"): Overhand strike to the forehead
* Suri-age shomenuchi ("rising front strike"): Rising (from chest-height) strike to the face
* Yokomenuchi ("side strike"): Diagonal overhand strike to the temple/jaw/neck
* Tsuki ("thrust"): Straight punches starting at the hip, vaguely karate-ish. (not boxing-style) Aimed at stomach/chest or face areas.

(The "uchi" strikes are executed with a knife-hand form in training.)

Now, these attacks have relatively little to do with how sophisticated unarmed fighters attack an opponent. A wild untrained haymaker sort of thing may function like a yokomenuchi, but I can't think of any natural unarmed attack that looks like shomenuchi. (The forehead is too hard to easily hurt with a bare hand.) Furthermore, most people's natural punch comes from the shoulders, not the hips, so tsuki is also odd for an unarmed strike.

So why the weird attacks? There are a couple lead theories:

1) Almost nobody throws empty-handed strikes like that, but many people deploy weapons (improvised or "real") in these ways. (Think about how you'd hit someone with a club, or jab them with a spear.)
2) Japan just never developed sophisticated methods of unarmed combat. These strikes are stand-up adaptations of blows meant to be deployed on a downed opponent to finish them off. (And don't work that great in the stand-up context.)

I think the answer might be a mix of those two.

One of the recent pushes in the aikido world has been to improve the quality of striking. Back in the "old days", people came to aikido with prior martial arts knowledge, and did not need to be taught how to strike with integrity; nowadays, it's many people's first art. There are FAR too many aikidoka who do a super-slow, clumsy lunge punch kind of thing for tsuki. The uchi strikes are generally better-executed, at least by aikido styles that also do sword/staff/knife technique. Still, some people do these lazy, gentle front-strikes that do not give the other person much incentive to properly neutralize them.

cyrijl
4/12/2007 10:39am,
I've practiced Aikido for over 7 years, which by no means makes me an authority. However, in that 7+ years I've never heard of "Daitoryu-Aikido". The only reference that I have been able to find to "Daitoryu-Aikido" is in reference to videos of this man.


You didn't find it because you didn't know what you were looking for. Daito-ryu is also discussed on aikiweb

PSanderson
4/12/2007 10:58am,
You didn't find it because you didn't know what you were looking for. Daito-ryu is also discussed on aikiweb
I'm not aware of any (major?) style calling itself "Daito-ryu Aikido". There's Daito-ryu jujutsu, later called Daito-ryu aikijujutsu to emphasize its use of "aiki" techniques. And then there's aikido. I think Ueshiba might have called his style Daito-ryu aikibudo at one point, but that's the best I can think of.

I looked over those google results. I -did- find the phrase "Daito-ryu aikido" used on this goofball page:

http://www.geocities.com/tokyo/4856/articles.html

But that's about it. If you know of a real style called Daito-ryu Aikido, I'd be interested to hear about it. I'll toss in the Wikipedia link for the viewing public, while I'm at it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daito-ryu_aiki-jujutsu

which lists the various official or semi-official branches of Daito-ryu.

At any rate, I do not believe that this guy was either part of aikido or daito-ryu jujutsu. At best, he had some acquaintance with one or both, and used the names to attract attention.

Incorrigible 1
4/12/2007 12:25pm,
Thanks for the info. King Akibunny style it would seem then. Not sure i this is the appropriate place to ask or if I should start a new thread but I was wondering Incorrigible 1, seeing as you studied Aikido for 7 years so far how much the art teaches about counters to strikes?

PSanderson wrote some excellent descriptions of the traditional attacks we work from. My experience with Aikido is "countering" a strike means moving off the line of attack, and executing technique. I do believe that the basic structure of the attacks we defend against translates into basic body mechanics and the structure of other attacks.

cyrijl
4/12/2007 12:30pm,
PS,
My comment was to incorrigible. He didn't find any results because he was looking under the wrong name. If you type in Daito-ryu, you get alot of results not about that crazy old guy.

As far as aikido vs. aikijutsu, I don't really care. I do know that over on aikiweb they talk about daito-ryu as if it is some relative to aikido, even if it is the retarded red-headed stepchild.

PSanderson
4/12/2007 12:40pm,
As far as aikido vs. aikijutsu, I don't really care. I do know that over on aikiweb they talk about daito-ryu as if it is some relative to aikido, even if it is the retarded red-headed stepchild.
Well, actually, more like the crazy uncle. Daito-ryu jujutsu is widely considered the main parent art of aikido. My point was that I have never heard of the specific term Daito-ryu aikido. The two arts are functionally separate these days: Daito-ryu (aiki)jujutsu is one art, aikido is another. Never heard of someone teaching something called Daito-ryu aikido. The closest I can recall is a transition name "(Daito-ryu) aikibudo" that Ueshiba used way back in the day. (Some splinter groups use "aikibudo" to this day, I think. However, anyone calling themselves Daito-ryu aikibudo would almost certainly rouse the ire of Daito-ryu's leadership, for implying the possession of a Daito-ryu license.)

So there's Daito-ryu aikijujutsu, and there's aikido. But I'm thinking crazy old guy is part of neither lineage.

cyrijl
4/12/2007 12:43pm,
oh...he might be...just like all these random karate guys running around. I think it is hard to establish and hard and fast rules with the older entrenched martial arts. Too many decades of fraud.

Incorrigible 1
4/12/2007 12:49pm,
You didn't find it because you didn't know what you were looking for. Daito-ryu is also discussed on aikiweb
PSanderson again beat me to the reply here. I was specifically referring to not being able to find an art that is called "Daitoryu-Aikido". I will concede that my search specifically consisted of queries for "Daitoryu-Aikido", "Daito-ryu Aikido", and "Daitoryuaikido" on Google, Yahoo!, and MSN, which I only scanned to the 5th page of return results.

I think that finding a conversation on "Daito-ryu" and implying that it refers to all things with Daito-ryu in the name would be like saying that "American" refers to North, Central and South Americans. Daito-ryu Jujitsu, Daito-ryu Aiki-jujitsu, and Daito-ryu Aikibudo are distinct styles with which Aikido naturally shares commonality because of its evolution from Daito-ryu Jujitsu.

Plus, I will restate that in the videos of "Yanagi Ryuken", or "Yanagiryuken" doing his schtick nothing that he does resembles an form of Aikido I've personally experienced or seen in the last seven years. I'm actually curious to find out more about this guy because I'd like to know exactly what his claims and lineage are.

Forgot to add that nothing he does resembles any Daito-ryu Jujitsu or Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu that I've seen demonstrated.

PSanderson
4/12/2007 12:51pm,
oh...he might be...just like all these random karate guys running around. I think it is hard to establish and hard and fast rules with the older entrenched martial arts. Too many decades of fraud.

Yeah, true. There's no central organization that licenses whether something is or isn't aikido. Despite being so new, there are -already- occurences of random first or second degree black belts starting their own styles of aikido in the middle of nowhere. On the other hand, one can draw a line between people with rank from one of the major organizations (e.g. Aikikai, Yoshinkan, Shodokan, Shin Shin Toitsu) and rogue bozos. Good instructors can still show a verifiable lineage back to Ueshiba.

As for Daito-ryu, it's messier than most koryu-type schools (is it koryu? another debate), but you can always go with the gold standard: do you have a menkyo kaiden (complete license) from Takeda?

PSanderson
4/12/2007 12:52pm,
Well, looks like you beat -me- to it on this one.


I'm actually curious to find out more about this guy because I'd like to know exactly what his claims and lineage are.

I'm not. He's some poor old nutcase.