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doninha
3/23/2007 4:06am,
I have some things that have been on my mind since I first started browsing this forum a few weeks ago. There are some of the most delusional people I think I've ever seen in my life floating around in here. Look...

Kudos to those that train any martial art. Even those who (sigh) choose TKD. Awesome. But people need to keep their ideas and arts to their own realm of experience. Don't tell me that TKD (or your Kung-Fu or Judo, or even your BJJ) is an effective form of self-defense, or would win against this other MA, unless you've tried it. I don't care what your instructor has told you. If you've never put up, then shut up. Period. Experience is the best teacher, and until you've been truly tested, YOU DON'T KNOW. And don't get mad when someone who has experience and has been tested puts you in your place.

On that same token, I hope everyone realizes that each of these arts and sport styles have specific rules. Each excels in its own environment. A judoka (sp?) is going to have his ass handed to him if he enters a TKD point match against a TKD fighter. Duh. But the same two in a MMA bout will 90% likely have a different outcome. Different rules require different methods. I remember watching Final Fu and laughing my ass off at the no-head-contact flail fest that was supposed to represent the cream of the crop of martial artists to the general public. But those were the rules, and those who adapt to the rules of the game will excel.

Is Aikido an effective form of self-defense? 90% of Aikido practitioners don't know. And the 10% who do will probably say "no." (unless they are lying to save face from the beatdown they experienced.) Does this make it less of a martial art? To those who think martial arts = live combat, then no, Aikido is not a martial art. Neither are any of the countless other martial arts that contain kata, breaking or funny dancing. But to some, it is not just about the fighting. There is something more to the arts than that for these people (unless they are deluding themselves. And if you are deluding yourself... stop it. Yes, you will get your ass kicked in a real fight.)

Damn, I'm rambling and not making much sense... Perhaps I can relate my point better this way:

I have been training capoeira contemporanea for ten years now. I have been teaching for five years and have my own school, with about 30 students. As a capoeirista, I would get my ass handed to me in the following situations: Entering a ring with a kickboxer, boxer, Muay Thai fighter, Judoka, MMA guy, BJJ guy, TKD guy (well, maybe not TKD guy *just kidding*), Kung Fu guy, etc. On the street, I would be at a pretty deep disadvantage against most of those above, too, unless I had been training to apply what I know to a REAL LIFE SITUATION, using as close to real methodology as possible. That means trying your **** on non-complient, angry people that aren't telling you what they are going to do. (If I see one more step-through punch, I'm going to scream.) But we would all most likely get beaten by the crazy mother fucker who's been living in the pen his whole life and carries a shank with him 'cause he's had to break every dude who looked at him crosseyed for the past ten years. Unless we have a gun. Then **** that guy, we win.

But nobody on this board could compete with me in the "Roda de Capoeira," because that is what I do and that is what I'm good at. Only another capoeirista with more experience and more talent than I can beat me (even though there is no "winner" per se, and it's all pretty subjective when there isn't a knockout or points to track). I guess what I'm saying is, give credit where credit is due. Your martial art will always suck compared to mine, as long as we follow my rules. Sometimes experience is the only teacher worth listening to.

Know what I mean?

Doninha

Nick K
3/23/2007 4:16am,
I don't think anyone here would disagree with you, which is why the YMAS threads provoke such hilarity.

And, in addition, in order of importance

Fighter > instructor > style

Gezere
3/23/2007 5:52am,
But nobody on this board could compete with me in the "Roda de Capoeira," because that is what I do and that is what I'm good at.
I wouldn't bet on that.:tongue11:


Only another capoeirista with more experience and more talent than I can beat me (even though there is no "winner" per se, and it's all pretty subjective when there isn't a knockout or points to track). I guess what I'm saying is, give credit where credit is due. Your martial art will always suck compared to mine, as long as we follow my rules. Sometimes experience is the only teacher worth listening to.


This is where you logic gets flawed. You assume that someone isn't going to hang with you in a roda. I have seen first hand TKD, KF, Karate, etc guys go into a roda and do just find. (Which was how I was when I first started in '93) Why? Transferring their skills and adapting. THAT is the key to MA. Yeah rules can make things diffuiclut but the bottomline a MA style was NOT made to only be good against those of the same style but to compete with others. So NO we don't have to give credit where credit is do. We only need to give credit to those that do what a MArtist should do and that is beable to take their style is use it successfully against others with success on a consistent basis. Thats is what Judo, BJJ,Wrestling, MT, ie those held highly in the MMA world, have done. Yes, experience is great but first hand experience isn't always required is some matters. I don't need to get burned first hand to know fire is hot. Still Experience is one of the best teachers out there.

Kokujin
3/23/2007 9:01am,
As a former CMA guy I kinda played the "inbred game" for a while, where you use kung fu techniques against kung fu techniques and a kung fu mentality. That usually makes you look good, until you face someone who thinks and train outside "your" box! It's then that you really test yourself and you can honestly say that, what you train works against "unpredictable" attacks.
I did the crane blockings and got smacked in the face by thai guys, I did the quinna and the bodybuilders would just shake me off with positionig and raw power and the list would go on.
But with sparring against other arts besides my own and a certain degree of adjustment I managed to hold my own and I honestly say that I use some kung fu as a tool for self defense.
So, while I admit that there are talented people in their own arts, as martial artists I would sugest less inbreeding and more thinking outside the box ( fighting against other styles for example):happy8:

PizDoff
3/23/2007 9:59am,
So...to summarize.

-People are deluded on this board. Didn't specify who.
-We should respect styles and what rules they fight under
-With your contemporary capoeira you'd get beat by nearly any standup style
-You don't think anyone here would beat you in a roda.
-Experience is good.


My thoughts.
-Who cares. Life isn't roda.
-How can I respect an art that does not compete? Do you break a few boards in the dojo and breathe and emanate confidence?
-Waste of bandwidth.
-We have some capoeritas or whatever you call it that crosstrain in other styles because they aren't deluded enough to think flying upside down kicks are effective self-defense. Unless they have lightsabres installed into their shoes.
-Experience is good.

So thank you for posting, can you clarify what you trying to say here?

WhiteShark
3/23/2007 10:00am,
LOL you clearly didn't lurk very long if you think THIS is news:

"I don't care what your instructor has told you. If you've never put up, then shut up. Period. Experience is the best teacher, and until you've been truly tested, YOU DON'T KNOW."

In other news the sun consistently rises in the east. Check it out tomorrow morning if you don't believe me.

Hanniballistic
3/23/2007 10:04am,
RED SAUCE ON PASTA!!!!!

cyrijl
3/23/2007 10:20am,
zum zum zum capoeira mata um

Phrost
3/23/2007 10:30am,
Those damn Caopoera guys, always ripping off Mazda commercials.

doninha
3/24/2007 3:04am,
I wouldn't bet on that.:tongue11:



This is where you logic gets flawed. You assume that someone isn't going to hang with you in a roda. I have seen first hand TKD, KF, Karate, etc guys go into a roda and do just find. (Which was how I was when I first started in '93) Why? Transferring their skills and adapting. THAT is the key to MA. Yeah rules can make things diffuiclut but the bottomline a MA style was NOT made to only be good against those of the same style but to compete with others. So NO we don't have to give credit where credit is do. We only need to give credit to those that do what a MArtist should do and that is beable to take their style is use it successfully against others with success on a consistent basis. Thats is what Judo, BJJ,Wrestling, MT, ie those held highly in the MMA world, have done. Yes, experience is great but first hand experience isn't always required is some matters. I don't need to get burned first hand to know fire is hot. Still Experience is one of the best teachers out there.

And what is your definition of "do just fine" in a roda? I'm not talking about all out fighting. You've trained capoeira before, and you should know that all the aspects of the game must be present for you to be considered the "dominant" player. If the game calls for a slower, more malicious game, then you have to oblige... A TKD fighter cannot go into a capoeira roda and just "adapt." Dance, fight, game, all at the same time. The ginga will suck and he will probably just revert to TKD and start kicking. A good quote from cafezinho in another thread:"I actually devolved into grappling today playing in class because I coudln't handle the other guy's capoeira." There is too much that needs to be learned and trained first. It takes time and experience to have a good jogo. Sure, coming from another art will help you adapt and many of the skills learned in other arts will serve you well in the roda. Many of my students crosstrain in other styles and do very well at adapting, but not without learning how to move and respect the game being played. That is all I'm trying to say, by using myself as an example... There may be plenty of people on this forum that can play better than me, but not without experience and an understanding of capoeira first.

And yes, another fighter with comparable experience in a more realistic art would **** me up in a real fight. I would be delusional to think a flip would be effective at anything other than getting me laid...

It seems that only the arts that produce MMA fighters get any respect around here. Is it such a sacrilege to acknowledge anything else as a martial art? Do people that practice kendo deserve no respect for their devotion to an essentially "dead" art? What about fencers and all the other sword arts? Not realistic at all, but still something to be appreciated IMO. Not everyone wants to be a fighter... sometimes their art is enough.

Doninha

p.s. - For those that don't know, the capoeira of today has evolved from a time when capoeiristas were among the most feared people in all of Brazil. See the following:

(shoutout to Shadwcat, who is a lady and a scholar)
http://www.capoeira-connection.com/Translations/Penal_Code.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madame_Sata
http://www.capoeira-connection.com/Translations/Interview_Lua.pdf
http://www.capoeira-connection.com/FAQ/faq14.htm
And check out the fighting section at the following site:
http://www.carfweb.net/capoeira/

Gezere
3/24/2007 8:26am,
And what is your definition of "do just fine" in a roda? I'm not talking about all out fighting. You've trained capoeira before, and you should know that all the aspects of the game must be present for you to be considered the "dominant" player. If the game calls for a slower, more malicious game, then you have to oblige... A TKD fighter cannot go into a capoeira roda and just "adapt."
Actually they can and have. I was and seen wushu guys with ZERO capoeira training watch a bit then go in and play very well against guys with alot of capoeira experience. Sorry to bust your bubble but it happens.


Dance, fight, game, all at the same time. The ginga will suck and he will probably just revert to TKD and start kicking.
Thats just your assumption. However as a side note you do know that several capoerista did incorporate TKD as well as Karate kicking methods in their capoeira when said arts were taking off in popularity.


A good quote from cafezinho in another thread:"I actually devolved into grappling today playing in class because I coudln't handle the other guy's capoeira." There is too much that needs to be learned and trained first. It takes time and experience to have a good jogo. Sure, coming from another art will help you adapt and many of the skills learned in other arts will serve you well in the roda. Many of my students crosstrain in other styles and do very well at adapting, but not without learning how to move and respect the game being played. That is all I'm trying to say, by using myself as an example... There may be plenty of people on this forum that can play better than me, but not without experience and an understanding of capoeira first.

Bottomline first roda I have NO capoeira experience I got a brief run down on what was going on by Mestre Corvo and went in an played better than most that had of experience. I got much better as I started training in Capoeira but I was still very good at the start do to previous training. It happens especially if the person is good at adaptability. I had no BJJ experience before competing in BJJ. My first competition I took 2 2ndplace and a 3rd place in 3 division against guys with alot more BJJ experience and even tied with a BJJ BB (2-2 was the final score) This was do to prior training in other arts. So you assuming that no one will hang with you without your level of cap training is just as delusional as you are assuming pple to be.


It seems that only the arts that produce MMA fighters get any respect around here. Is it such a sacrilege to acknowledge anything else as a martial art?
Again another flaw in logic. Not all arts are equal and times change still the goal of MA has remained the same, which is being able to defeat another is combat. If some arts are producing pple who are better at doing it than others then they deserve more respect.


Do people that practice kendo deserve no respect for their devotion to an essentially "dead" art? What about fencers and all the other sword arts? Not realistic at all, but still something to be appreciated IMO. Not everyone wants to be a fighter... sometimes their art is enough.
That is called LARPing. You can't cut it for what an art is supposed to be for so you PLAY at doing it and you rationalize to make yourself feel better. No I don't have to respect a kendo players devotion, nor any one else if all they are doing is LARPing. If your goal is merely cultural preservation the just admit that and don't speak on your obsolete martial glory as if it matters today. Its also not even historically accurate for pple to appreciate every method of MA out there.

BTW ART in the term MARTIAL ART means SKILL. The SKILL is combat. Their SKILL should allow them to defeat an opponent. If they can't then their art is lacking.

sochin101
3/24/2007 8:32am,
And, in addition, in order of importance

Fighter > instructor > style
I find myself compelled to agree with Dr Nick.

Teh El Macho
3/24/2007 8:42am,
I swear to Lord Xenu this thread has a deja vue'esque smell, taste and feel.

Matt W.
3/24/2007 10:55am,
When speaking of rules and how they limit fighters, your point (should) only apply to fighting under MORE resptrictive rules than what the fighter is used to. If a martial art is supposed to be about fighting, which they are, then reducing the rule limitations in a fight venue should not be a hinderance. Now, no one is denying that a boxer is not going to know how to handle grappling, or that a pure grappler might not be used to handling strikes. But a boxer or a Judoka should still be able to, at least, make their art work (e.g. effectively throw or punch) in a less restrictive environment. If an art ONLY works in it's particular competition venue than that is as good as admitting it is useless in a self defense situation where there may be no restrictions at all.

Also, of course everyone who is an MAist should train hard and fight! I don't think anyone would deny that. However, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. There is a preponderance of evidence (not anecdotal, but verifiable) that suggests there is a training methodology that is better for training fighters (whatever the venue). It is certainly permissable to discuss that evidence even if one hasn't personally duplicated everything in it.

Hanniballistic
3/24/2007 12:07pm,
And yes, another fighter with comparable experience in a more realistic art would **** me up in a real fight. I would be delusional to think a flip would be effective at anything other than getting me laid...


Then don't claim your way of combat is as valid as any other then if it quite clearly isn't




It seems that only the arts that produce MMA fighters get any respect around here. Is it such a sacrilege to acknowledge anything else as a martial art? Do people that practice kendo deserve no respect for their devotion to an essentially "dead" art? What about fencers and all the other sword arts? Not realistic at all, but still something to be appreciated IMO. Not everyone wants to be a fighter... sometimes their art is enough.


Great that they enjoy it...but essentially they have no business on bullshido where the overwhelming majority are concerned with combat effectiveness. XMA is valid for what it does - but it is not a martial art in the strictist sense, rather it is a sport inlfluenced by martial arts movements.

By your definition I can take skeet shooting as being equally valid when compared to military "action" in a conflict zone (one represents theroetical shooting of a live target, the other is fightibg for your life).

I will always take praxis over theory when it comes to combat.



p.s. - For those that don't know, the capoeira of today has evolved from a time when capoeiristas were among the most feared people in all of Brazil. See the following:

(shoutout to Shadwcat, who is a lady and a scholar)
http://www.capoeira-connection.com/Translations/Penal_Code.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madame_Sata
http://www.capoeira-connection.com/Translations/Interview_Lua.pdf
http://www.capoeira-connection.com/FAQ/faq14.htm
And check out the fighting section at the following site:
http://www.carfweb.net/capoeira/



That approximates to zero if they capoeiristas of today cannot effectively apply their art. With regards to fighting, the genesis of a combat system - whilst interesting - is irrelevant if the progeny does not function in the same manner.

There was a time when sumo was a battlefield art - I doubt it would see much use in Iraq.

aaaargh
3/24/2007 4:06pm,
Regarding fencing and kendo:




...That is called LARPing.

Aren't these both sports? Why call them LARPing?