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It is Fake
2/17/2007 6:40pm,
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1363242&postcount=6





...he told me that they as a rule do not let people who practice other MA train with them!! What does that supposed to mean? Is that an insecurity of that particular school, or is it a common practice for kung fu?
It's a common practice. If you are learning kung fu, you don't have time for anything else anyway.

I don't know anything about this school and can not intelligently comment further.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1363373&postcount=11





That's an interesting statement. Why do you feel that way? Theoretically you can say that about any martial art.
You are right. I think it is especially true of Chinese arts because certain training programs/exercises just take a long time to do. In today's day and age, most people can't dedicate 8 hours a day to training.

Ming Loyalist suggested we start a thread here about these interesting posts by Mr. Mantis.
I think it is a good idea.

RunningDog
2/17/2007 6:49pm,
Well I used to take it for granted, in my kung fu days, that I'd have to keep learning well into old age, and that I wouldn't be seriously badass for a number of years.
However there are 2 problems with this.
The first is that your entire training regime is based on a single article of faith - the faith that one day all these exercises will give you such incredible sensitivity and speed that you'll be undefeatable.
The second is that even if the first was true, this is the real world, we need results a little faster than that, whatever our reasons for training.

Mr. Mantis
2/17/2007 7:05pm,
As we know, the CMAs have many exercise programs that are indicated to be done in a certain way. Some are comprised of certain movements that are done as reps before moving on to the next movement. Some are a set of different movements that just comprise a long sequence of movements. Some exercises should be done many times a day. Though, I have only come across those that require once, twice and three times per day. I've seen exercises that can take from 5 minutes to those that take an hour and a half.

These are what I consider "strength" exercises, whether they are internal or external in primary focus or intent. I would consider the strength portion of a day's workout to be the bare minimum. So, if you did not have the time that day to do a full workout, you should at least do that. I would also suggest working in a weight program as well.

Then you have the other portions of training that should be practiced daily which includes form practice, sparring, working drills, both solo and with a partner all for empty hand and whatever weapon or weapons the person is focusing on at the time.

CanucKyokushin
2/17/2007 8:00pm,
Are you all suggesting that sparring time should be equal to practicing forms and at every class?

EmetShamash
2/17/2007 8:08pm,
Do you think with modern strength and flexibility training techniques, that CMA can be learned somewhat non-traditionally in order to progress a student faster? I am not knowledgeable enough to answer such a question... :P

It is Fake
2/17/2007 8:10pm,
Are you all suggesting that sparring time should be equal to practicing forms and at every class?
Yeah, don't troll here.

Ming Loyalist
2/17/2007 8:14pm,
one thing about TCMA training is that you are expected to do quite a bit of different types of training, especially once you have been practicing for a couple of years seriously.

in my school, we have chi kung training, stancework (both static and moving), line drills, conditioning drills (both partnered and solo), sparring, padwork, bagwork, and both hand forms and weapons forms. oh and lion dance (which is super hard and can help with generation of short range power.)

to train in all of this can be very time consuming, and there are people who excell in certain areas and not in others.

i am hoping that in this thread we can talk about the various types of training and what we feel makes it worthwhile.

we can also discuss weightlifting and roadwork and compare them to TCMA strength and endurance building excercises. those of us who use both can say why.

i don't have time to post a lot right now but will come back with more...

RunningDog
2/17/2007 8:16pm,
I'm of the opinion that forms are unnecessarily long and complex. The order of movements doesn't matter, does it? So why not just break them down, take the parts you think you need to retain the essence of your art, and just integrate those parts into drilling, padwork and sparring?

It is Fake
2/17/2007 8:17pm,
Do you think with modern strength and flexibility training techniques, that CMA can be learned somewhat non-traditionally in order to progress a student faster? I am not knowledgeable enough to answer such a question... :P
IMO yes. My former GM said that weight training is safer now why keep all old methods.

Now, before traditionalists lay into this statement please listen.


Not all methods can be or should be replaced. I personally feel many of the advancement we have made in weight training negate years of stance training and forms endurance. Yet, you need forms (not hundreds) to work on balance and isolated muscles that weight lifting may not affect.

It is Fake
2/17/2007 8:24pm,
I'm of the opinion that forms are unnecessarily long and complex. In some cases I agree.


The order of movements doesn't matter, does it?No.



So why not just break them down, take the parts you think you need to retain the essence of your art, and just integrate those parts into drilling, padwork and sparring?Good school do exactly what you propose.


Tell us what kung fu schools you have seen or practiced. This isn't an insult or challenge.

SifuJason
2/17/2007 8:35pm,
I'm of the opinion that forms are unnecessarily long and complex. The order of movements doesn't matter, does it? So why not just break them down, take the parts you think you need to retain the essence of your art, and just integrate those parts into drilling, padwork and sparring?


While I don't particularly like forms, and my school doesn't focus on them, they are still a part of what we do and something I find valuable. The order of movements does indeed matter, because forms help develop the ability to move fluidly between stances while incorporating strikes. By doing so, you help develop balance, speed, fluidity, and precision, all of which are very useful in a fight. Are they the most time-efficient method way to develop some of these attributes? I don't personally believe so. However, they do serve to hone you physically and skill-wise in a way other drills don't neccesarily do, and so forms have their place.

----

In regards to the general question posted, in my perspective CMA can be the most "complete" of the martial arts. While many CMAs taught today have cut out a lot, CMA can incorporate striking, grappling, throws, weapons, etc, and thus if you have all day to train (8 hours a day) CMA can accomodate you, at least in theory.

Now, whether the above is actually reality I am not so sure. I happen to practice/teach an eclectic, modern style of kung fu with a lot of other stuff mixed in; so I don't have a partcularly strong need to go beyond my system (although extra BJJ is always nice). I WISH I had 8 hours/day to train.

RunningDog
2/17/2007 8:36pm,
In some cases I agree.

No.


Good school do exactly what you propose.


Tell us what kung fu schools you have seen or practiced. This isn't an insult or challenge.

I used to go to a school which called itself shaolin, and had a load of low-stance forms. Then I did Wai Po Tang Wing Chun for a year, and Leung Ting's Wing Tsun for years.
I think with the Shaolin school, the strength gains from horse-stance could have been achieved more efficiently with modern resistance training, like someone just said. They didn't actually apply most of the movements from the forms in sparring.

With Wing Tsun, or any wing chun, they do at least try to use everything from the forms as fighting application. However they emphasize form practice and perfection so much, that they're seen as the ultimate reference source. Practitioners really believe that the forms contain every possible movement you need for fighting. This has, I think, led the art to stagnate terribly - at the moment no adaptation is possible due to form worship.

What kung fu styles break their forms up and adapt to modern training methods? I've never seen one.

It is Fake
2/17/2007 8:46pm,
What kung fu styles break their forms up and adapt to modern training methods? I've never seen one.
From what I've read Sifu Jason and Omega's school do this. Before I quit teaching (long story) I did it with Xingyi.

You have to know what to look for when you go into a school. Forms IMO became like Pokemon got ratch them all. This over shadowed their usefulness.

China from the Inside had a really good article about xingyi. Basically the guy said masters kept adding things they took from other arts that they liked. I like elbows suddenly there is an elbow form. Some one liked the iron fan so on and so forth.

It is Fake
2/17/2007 8:49pm,
While I don't particularly like forms, and my school doesn't focus on them, they are still a part of what we do and something I find valuable. The order of movements does indeed matter, I agree in this context.

In the context of sparring, which I thought he was asking, the order doesn't matter.

RunningDog
2/17/2007 8:56pm,
From what I've read Sifu Jason and Omega's school do this. Before I quit teaching (long story) I did it with Xingyi.

You have to know what to look for when you go into a school. Forms IMO became like Pokemon got ratch them all. This over shadowed their usefulness.

China from the Inside had a really good article about xingyi. Basically the guy said masters kept adding things they took from other arts that they liked. I like elbows suddenly there is an elbow form. Some one liked the iron fan so on and so forth.

I guess it depends on your school, and the attitude of your sifus, how much adaptation/discarding you can do. Where I was teaching I could get away with massively upping the intensity of training, but I was still constrained to a syllabus that included a great number of increasingly complex drills, and of course 'perfection' of the forms.

Now that I've calmed down on the _ing _un hating, I can admit that there's still some stuff I like about it, and that I daresay could be useful. But in the restricted position I was in, there was no way I could concentrate on those things and bring in new material. I started to do so but shortly realized that I was fighting a losing battle, so I quit the school entirely.

I suspect that a lot of 'trad' schools have the same obstacles.

Mr. Mantis
2/17/2007 9:05pm,
I have found that doing stances managed to make my legs very strong. I did develop a sure footedness so to speak, though I can not really just attribute that to stances. But one thing for sure, regular stance training made my legs muscular and dense or hard. It toughened my legs. I could take kicks to my legs. I did eventually overtrain and hurt my knee. I went to my chiropractor to have him look at it to get his thoughts. He says "What in the hell have you been doing to your legs? Holy ****!"

Anyway, all I would need is 15 minutes a day to do them, and I regularly did them while watching TV. Talk about pain.

PS: There's some show on animal planet now talking about animal inspired styles, I'm going to have to subject myself to it.