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Bang!
2/04/2007 9:48am,
Look, baby, I'm not going to bullshit you. There's a lot of nonsense espoused in the name of CMA. As I've said before, this is one of the problems that naturally arises from styles of martial arts that aren't 100% performance-oriented. And I don't know about you, sexy pants, but I don't want to see the CMA forum cluttered up with nonsense. So here's the plan:

Ridiculous questions and comments will be assembled in this thread. Discussion will go on until either A) we come to a concise repsonse or B) things get too ridiculous.

Thanks to Backfist Monkey, we have our first question (from this (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50874) thread):
I've heard (and I swear I read it somewhere) that as part of his experimental diet, he ( Bruce Lee) actually mixed raw meat and often blood into his protein drinks.

Has anyone else heard this or can anyone provide me with a link that proves that Bruce Lee was a blood-drinker?

And somewhere ini a thread anouncing this forum on Empty Flower (where there wasn't exactly a whole lot of love), we got this gem:
Last I heard, MMA guys rarely...if ever... enter San Shou because they don't have good enough striking abilities to keep up.

dwhomp
2/04/2007 11:08am,
Bruce Lee, I swear...people just dont get tired of this or him. I will chime with a who cares.

MMA not wanting to do San Shou? Why would they? The San Shou and MMA fights are games, games have rules. Why particpate in one where the rules are in direct opposition. I dont think this is a stupid statement. I for one would not fair well in a game in which there was heavy groundfighting. My knowledge is quite limited. My practice has been enough that I am not 100% clueless in aspects of ground fighting. So i sure wouldnt go enter a judo tournament.

I also participate on Emptyflower and while I will not speak for them, there is a general opinion that folks interested in the Internal arts are used as ridicule here. Now, I will not say that IMA doesnt have their share of whackos, there is little doubt.

But what of those IMArists that are very focused in fighting applications and recognize words like "chi" as having no western equivilant and dont think of it as some mystical power, rather then the study of say my own XY which is, in essence, the practice of providing maximum power through perfection in structure, so that upon impact, the structure as close to perfect as possible, causes strikes that damage that they CANT be practiced at their full potential. Surely this is something the MMA community could hopefully keep their minds open to.

Sorry, rambled a bit there;)

It is Fake
2/04/2007 11:53am,
I also participate on Emptyflower and while I will not speak for them, there is a general opinion that folks interested in the Internal arts are used as ridicule here. Now, I will not say that IMA doesnt have their share of whackos, there is little doubt.

But what of those IMArists that are very focused in fighting applications and recognize words like "chi" as having no western equivilant and dont think of it as some mystical power, rather then the study of say my own XY which is,
Welcome to bullshido.



in essence, the practice of providing maximum power through perfection in structure, so that upon impact, the structure as close to perfect as possible, causes strikes that damage that they CANT be practiced at their full potential. See, I was agreeing with you up to the bold. I enjoy forms to a degree, forms help work on structure.

The bold is the problem that people have with IMAers. The implied control and deadly that is espoused.

Yes, they can be practiced at full potential not 100% there is a difference.
Yes, they can be practiced with gloves and gear.
Yes, a heavy bag is just as good as the Makiwara board or sandbag.

Sorry but the caps makes a certain implication I disagee with in discussions. Every art has things you can't practice 100%.

Certain arts, especially internal art is seems, to use it as crutch.

Bang!
2/04/2007 1:48pm,
Making a claim that san shou guys, in general, have better hands than their MMA counterparts may be a bit of a stretch just because of the popularity of the latter at present time. However, the statement does make sense in theory, just like boxers should have better hands than san shou guys. Naturally, people performing within a more limited rule-set are going to get better at developing individual attributes. However, one thing you have to bear in mind is that people who fight within a broader parameters are invariably going to view more restricted rule-sets as being more removed from reality than their own. San shou guys will regard pure grapplers or pure strikers as being less realistic. Ditto for MMA players vs. san shou players. Ditto for RSBD guys vs. MMA guys (a discussion we won’t get into here). However, these are all just games (although I would argue necessary ones) to practice certain skills. At the end of the day, comparing an individual attribute between one rule-set or another is sort of like saying that guys who do the giant slalom ski better than biathletes. They’re different events and should simply be regarded as such.

As for being “too deadly,” I’m going to have to go with Is It Fake, here. That’s what pads are for. While I am not denying the possibility of strikes that can cause serious internal injury, I believe that the majority of people who claim this skill are being more than a little optimistic about their own abilities. Show me someone who can punch through moderate to light padding and still pull off a body K.O against a conditioned subject and I’ll be more than happy to concede the point for that individual.

dwhomp
2/05/2007 11:31pm,
Now now guys, I didnt say too "deadly" because I understand what that implies. I truly do.

I will only speak of Xing Yi, and cant speak for or about other arts.

In our practice we do two things....perfect our structure at moment of impact and in the process, destroy the other's structure to our advantage. So what I mean is, it doesnt matter if you have gloves on or the like, you actually finish the punch, you are going to really hurt someone. Now, if you chose not to run with that, well hey, I will agree to disagree. We do get pasted that with using more of a "pushing" instead of a strike. And yes there are many ways to practice, but practice with another person must be done care. Whether you choose to open to that notion or not is up to you.

Now, I am NOT talking about some mystical 1 hit attack that levels persons, taught in some back room to 3 people alive that with one attack can kill a man.

Does this help the above? I understand if does not because I hate the notion of the mystical 1 hit death, but when you get to work with a truly knowledgable Xing Yi player, say what you want, but it is an experience.

As far as showing what I mean, and you may hate it, but it really must be experienced. And that is what the non-insane IMA players hate about MMA-ers, unwillingess to try it out yet spew forth drivel. But i\I do get where it comes from. It comes from the videos on this site. The web pages of mystical power. They move crap with your mind and other sort of nonsense.

Xing Yi is the study of structure and body mechanics. When some use a word like "chi" we use words like gravity, structure, keeping motions "alive" (basically making sure if one hand is doing X, the other is not doing nothing or "dead").

You tell me where MMA folks would not benefit from this...

Bang!
2/05/2007 11:43pm,
I've been going back and forth a bit between this site and Empty Flower. What I see is a whole lot of people using their own biases as blinders because they don't want to even contemplate the notion that they could have something to learn from the other guy. It's too bad because I would also like to see more co-operative learning. There is another barrier that is TMA-specific, but I'm going to get into that on another thread.

SpringHeeledJack
2/05/2007 11:53pm,
I guess I have no business posting in here seeing as how I have no CMA experience, but after reading the above post, I just had to ask what in the world you are talking about. I'm really trying not to be rude here, but I really can't understand these punches that padding can't protect you from. I feel pretty confident that a boxer can hit harder than most any CMArtist, and they always train at, or at least near full tilt. Really, I'm not trying to be a dick, but could you please explain this instead of just saying that we have to agree to disagree. Sorry, if I seem angry, I just don't understand.


Ed-when I said the "above post" I meant dwhomp's not RM's.

Bang!
2/05/2007 11:55pm,
It's a fair question.

SpringHeeledJack
2/05/2007 11:56pm,
Glad you said that. I'm not sure how to act over on this side.

Bang!
2/05/2007 11:57pm,
More Nimoy, less Shatner.

SpringHeeledJack
2/06/2007 12:02am,
Gotcha. Thanks for the tip.

dwhomp
2/06/2007 12:07am,
This is EXACTLY why I have dabbled in a couple systems of groundfighting. I dont want to be ignorant and taken off guard. Because I recognize the notion that I could happen to me. If I dont know what to do, I am hurt.

But by the name notion, ground rollers think there is nothing that can be learned the other way around. Again I only speak of Xing Yi.

How did I personally get involved with Xing Yi? It was easy. I had played around with a few different things and loved to spar, blah blah. I did a Xing Yi seminar because I had read about it and was interested in seeing it.

Through sparring with different people of different art and different abilities, we have all been hit. I was doing some sparring with one of the senior students of the instructor of the seminar and he hit me harder that I had been hit before. Now, I am a bigger guy. The people I would be sparring were flash TKD and Karate folks and I was used to walking through their punches and kicks with ease.

Here was a guy quite a bit smaller than me and he was just having his way with me. Then every so often I would get hit with something that would force me to stop the sparring session. It was more than just a lucky shot to my chin or a well timed uppercut right to my solar plexus. And more so, I was sweating like a pig and he wasnt breathing hard at all.

After that I was hooked and have been for a long time now; Proof was there for me.

I didnt focus on the strategies of the jab, or the proper placement and delivery of a round house kick. I didnt have to anymore, I just needed to learn how to move.

SpringHeeledJack
2/06/2007 12:18am,
Ok, I'm just gonna leave it alone. I don't want to start **** in these forums.These forums are for CMA guys, which I am not, so I don't belong here, and will respect you guys' "turf." Thanks again Repulsive Monkey.

Bang!
2/06/2007 12:20am,
dwhomp, you realize that you didn't answer his question, right?

dwhomp
2/06/2007 12:29am,
I guess I have no business posting in here seeing as how I have no CMA experience, but after reading the above post, I just had to ask what in the world you are talking about. I'm really trying not to be rude here, but I really can't understand these punches that padding can't protect you from. I feel pretty confident that a boxer can hit harder than most any CMArtist, and they always train at, or at least near full tilt. Really, I'm not trying to be a dick, but could you please explain this instead of just saying that we have to agree to disagree. Sorry, if I seem angry, I just don't understand.


Ed-when I said the "above post" I meant dwhomp's not RM's.


I can try...

First again a caveat...there are as many CMA as there are fat people at a casino...to classify them all in the same light would be like saying White People Are Rich. As for my opinions, good bad or otherwise, I hate 95% of all CMA. It is drivel as far as any sort of fighting is concerned. It is Flippy McFancy and most lack any sort of realism or practicallity.

Ok, that said and i am sure I have pissed off some...

A boxer is a good example and one that is perfect to use....if you remember in the hayday of Ali, he would throw this punch that looked like a uppercut that would knock folks out and it looked like the other guys was taking a dive. I remember reading older articles even refer to it as a "phantom" punch. But it was a very real punch, thrown with excellent body mechanics.

We spend a lot of time studying how the body the moves, where it is weakest, where it is strongest. There is a quite of bit of analysis and discussion of how not to hit and how to best hit. This is then coupled with a study of movement and body structure.

So how does a XY man throw a punch? It is like dominoes falling down, one piece follows the other. Some basic mantras...elbow nevers extends pasted the knee. At point of impact, the back heel is kept on the ground and move in conjunction with the hand.

XY also uses a principal of "coiling" to allow for the full body to coil and uncoil in conjunction with the stike/throw/whatever. And I am sure you may write it off, but I cant explain some of these in text. Not because they are mystical but somethings you just need to see. And yes, it is something that can be seen. However, if you are sincere, TRULY sincere at seeing these in practice I will work on that (all I have is a cell phone camera) but I will film some and show it to you.

Again, these are NOT mystic secrets or chi ball whatever else that comes with it. But just as you could argue that BJJ was studied and excelled because it focused on how the body moved and phyics on the ground.

To refer to the comments about practice and how can gloves not help. Of course they do. And we train them as such. We use heavy bags, focus pads, all the same fun toys you do. The reason that when working with a partner we use a "push" more than a strike is that you are practicing on breaking an opponents structure and when that structure is broken they are at their weakest, you at your strongest. We use a "push" as it shows knoweldge and proper mechanics to what you are doing without hurting.

And I too am at a loss, as I am not familiar with speaking to MMAers much, so if terms like structure and the like seem to flowery, I can adjust the language I think.

dwhomp
2/06/2007 12:30am,
dwhomp, you realize that you didn't answer his question, right?


Cause that post was posted after I saw his response:)

I am not a fast typer and I am truly attempting to bridge a language and knowledge gap.