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sdempster
10/01/2008 2:15pm,
I used to think that bjj was the only thing that worked and that all I had to do was grab someone, get mounted on them, and that was it. Then I realized that EVERYONE in the world does bjj which gave me no advantage anymore because I'm far from the strongest in a given class.

I used to think bjj worked in real fights until I got attacked by three guys bigger than me at the SAME time in the middle of the street with no mats anywhere to be found, only ASPHALT.

I used to think bjj was the only thing that worked until I got in a nasty fight where the unwritten, unspoken rules in my bjj school (no real striking, no elbows no groin shots, no attacking the eyes, no picking the body up from the the guard and slamming it into the floor head first, no stomping from a standing position, attacking the neck, back of the head and anywhere on the neck with effective striking,slamming the head into the concrete with whole body weight, biting, small joint locks/breaks, etc) almost landed me in the real life no rules reality-based hospital.

I used to think that training for mma was the same as training for a street fight until I realized they have almost NOTHING in common and that if someone has a weapon like a knife or a friend (who doesn't now) that kickboxing and bjj don't work.

I used to think traditional martial arts didn't. Work big time until Dan Inosanto and the Dog Brothers introduced me to truly effective Filipino and Indonesian martial arts which to this day have to keep everyday people alive in a worst case scenario street fight. These weapons based and multiple opponent based grappling arts could be trained and pressure tested in the same way that bjj is trained but have better focus on things that matter when the shot hits the fan.

I used to think that bjj was the best because Royce couldn't lose. Then the Gracies taught everyone and everyone realized it was no big thing. They had an advantage because there was an information gap, but the sold that out and now one of the toughest Gracies, Renzo, had to give up because someone "broke the rules?!?" and kneed him in the back of the head! Then I took a good hard, UNBIASED look at the list of RULES in the UFC and realized that there would be no reason for those if those attacks weren't "too effective and dangerous" besides making it much more difficult if not nearly impossible for a grappler to win.

Boy was I disillusioned! Maybe it was the bjj schools I went to, like Rickson Gracie's bjj or the Machado Brothers, yeah. . . They're not quality.

jj77
10/01/2008 2:35pm,
Growing up I was brainwashed by Kungfu movies and watching friends in TKD classes that always showed off high kicks. I thought the r34l MA's were either kungfu , TKD or the ninjutsu from Japan.

Boxing to me back then was a sport only and krotty could beat any boxer...

kultist
10/01/2008 3:11pm,
I used to think traditional martial arts didn't. Work big time until Dan Inosanto and the Dog Brothers introduced me to truly effective Filipino and Indonesian martial arts which to this day have to keep everyday people alive in a worst case scenario street fight. These weapons based and multiple opponent based grappling arts could be trained and pressure tested in the same way that bjj is trained but have better focus on things that matter when the shot hits the fan.

I used to think that bjj was the best because Royce couldn't lose. Then the Gracies taught everyone and everyone realized it was no big thing. They had an advantage because there was an information gap, but the sold that out and now one of the toughest Gracies, Renzo, had to give up because someone "broke the rules?!?" and kneed him in the back of the head! Then I took a good hard, UNBIASED look at the list of RULES in the UFC and realized that there would be no reason for those if those attacks weren't "too effective and dangerous" besides making it much more difficult if not nearly impossible for a grappler to win.



I wouldn't exactly call Dog bros and Inosanto traditional. The former is really just MMA with weapons and the who point of the latter was that he WASN'T traditional martial arts, that he'd taken the good techniques and training methods and discarded all of the bad ones.

And also, you became disillusioned about the gracies because they've been beaten occasionally? Are you living in some schtizophrenic dreamworld where it's always 1993, and any information that takes you away from this groundhog day is attacked by some strange array of Freudian defence mechanisms? Lord Kimura (peace be with him) himself beat Helio at his own game in the early 20th centuary, even after Helio had provided an arena with mats so soft that Kimura's awesome throws would not concuss him, forcing Kimura to go to ground and beat him there. Well rounded fighters with skills in takedown defence and clinch breaking, as well as rudimentary groundwork have been beating the gracies since the mid ninetees. Does anyone on this site still seriously suggest not crosstraining when the opportunity presents itsself?

EDIT: Also, since the rules were changed from the original UFC format it actually became much harder for grapplers to win, since strikers could hit at full power again and grapplers had less time on the ground, so all a striker needed to be able to do was stall so he could GTFO.

TheRuss
10/01/2008 3:17pm,
Protip: In all probability, sdempster has never actually studied Brazilian jiu-jitsu. There is also a better-than-even chance that he lives in his parents' basement.

kultist
10/01/2008 3:23pm,
Protip: In all probability, sdempster has never actually studied Brazilian jiu-jitsu. There is also a better-than-even chance that he lives in his parents' basement.

I like feeding trolls

Steve357
10/03/2008 2:06pm,
Actually, SDempster trained 5 days a week for years with The RCJ machados at the time when Eddie Bravo was a blue belt there in my class. I know because I'm Sdempster, I got Eddie a few times, and he wiped the floor with me. I busted my ass at that school. Renato Magno taught and Jean Jaques was running the show, but rarely taught at that time. I was also there when Mike Swaim (olympic gold medalist at judo at that time) came in and trained, and rolled with Jean Jaques, and got smoked. I was also there at Rickson's school when he was challenged by a big Japanese pro wrestler (shooter) with a camera crew early one morning in our 6am class. Rickson had to be called at home, woken up, and he came down and choked him out right in front of us.

Yes, I trained my ass off at BJJ, that doesn't mean it's what I want in a street fight. I've been in at least 20 real street fights, and almost never ended up on the ground.

And if you're looking to Dojo Bust, please be my guest, anyone....ANYONE to come down to Paul De Thouars' Academy of Bukti Negara Pentjak Silat and see if we spar and if it works.

TheRuss
10/03/2008 2:48pm,
I know because I'm Sdempster

Pretty sure that multiple accounts (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2358) are against the rules here... although in fairness, given the age of your accounts, they may actually be grandfathered in.

In any case, on the off chance that your representation of your background is adequate, I am flabbergasted at the utter lack of common sense you've put on display. It's stunning, really.

Father Dagon
10/03/2008 3:29pm,
LOL at the number of wrestlers who thought wrestling was useless and didn't realize that they could already probably beat 80% of other martial artists to a bloody mess.Well, the ultimate way to wage war war is to destroy the strategy of your enemy. So if you can break your enemys morale by insinuations, half-truths and blatant lies - the better for you.

*Waves hands around in mysterious gestures and make meowing weabooish catcalls.*

TheRuss
10/03/2008 3:40pm,
weabooish

Hm?

http://pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF071-Weeaboo.gif (http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF071-Weeaboo.gif)

(Also, Google tells me weeaboo is something like "Wapanese"... is this correct?)

Father Dagon
10/03/2008 5:11pm,
Hm?

http://pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF071-Weeaboo.gif (http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF071-Weeaboo.gif)

(Also, Google tells me weeaboo is something like "Wapanese"... is this correct?)Correct. "Vipan" and "Wapanisch" is the swedish and the german equivalents to "Wapanese", just so you know...

(Now off to talk trash about the elite of UFC. I'll grind their self confidence to a fine dust, so that they'll die of heart attacks as soon as I enter the Octagon.)

Steve357
10/04/2008 12:02am,
Before you get your grappling Gi in a bunch, "TheRuss", think about what you are saying, and try not to be biased. I DO NOT do RBSD like some fantasy martial artists. (I also forgot I even had another account, and my passwords and I keep having to reset everything so **** man, sorry about the multiple accounts.) I've been doing progressively more and more realistic training since I started back in 1990. I understand this site is all about bashing those who think they don't have to spar....or have never been in fights (always goes hand in hand) but if you're mad at those who have blind allegance to one style because they think THEIR ART is the only effective thing out there.....look in the mirror first, my friend. Grapplers have been self rightous since Royce reminded us all that you better know how to grapple. How many ways are there to grapple? In real combat arts from hundreds of years ago...(sometimes more than a thousand years ago) people had to deal with the same ****, but then there was no referee to break it up. No mats either. It was for all the marbles and you'd better be good.

People trained like it was life or death because it was. There was no TV. You learned from your uncle, your dad, or some guy in your village who knew his stuff, and you begged for training and sacrificed everything for it because you might get robbed and/or killed without it.

Just because the commercialization of martial arts in the last 75 years has watered down combat arts to the point that they're laughable and useless doesn't mean that FINALLY, you and your buddies, the Gracies, have FINALLY found something that works, in the last 75 years. Just stop for a second, I'm not talking about you directly, "TheRuss." But think about how arrogant it would be to assume that in our relatively safe environment with cops and hospitals everywhere, strict and sometimes fair governments in place, that we are the first to discover really potent martial arts. The UFC and similar events have brought the truth to the surface (again) and cleaned off a LOT of Con Artistry and Bullshit fat off of the top of the martial arts world. Thank you Rorion Gracie, Thank you Judo Gene, thank you Bruce Lee, Dan Inosanto, etc. But, how many types of grappling are there? Before Judo, there was Samurai BATTLEFIELD DEVELOPED AND TESTED Jiu Jitsu (unarmed combat) with more moves, more dangerous moves and attacks etc., than Judo. You can't afford to roll on the floor when people are swinging real, sharp, long, metal around. Now those proven arts are pretty much taught like bullshit. And for the time people can give to training, we don't have the time to master that stuff. Any hack can run up and hug someone to get them to stop punching or dive for the legs and look like a pro. How much skill does that really take? How many people have SUPER HIGH SKILL at it? Kimura did. He wasn't only doing a classroom developed specialty art to win in tournaments. He could kill someone by tossing them head first (still grappling) into the ground without going to the mat with them. This is the only clear way to grapple against multiple opponents or someone with a weapon. Why do you think the old style REAL hardcore Aiki JiuJitsu looks so insane at high speed, or plain old Greco Roman. The idea is to stay up and finish them without going down too. Yeah, you gotta know what to do when you're down there, but lots of combat arts teach it. Cut out the 98% of bullshit schools that never pressure test their students with hard sparring, and the 98% of schools that spar but don't have clean and brilliantly efficient technique, and you get. . . depressed because there are a less than a handfull of real combat science schools out there with both hardcore realism and the jawdroppingly efficient techniques. Maybe a few in the world if you are really honest with yourself. I had to hear Inosanto rave about Paul De Thouars' combat science to find my home. I'm sure there are others, but whatever the science is, it better have grappling pressure, effective striking (deadly if its a true combat art. . . as in back, side, front of neck with elbow and forearms, thumbs in the eyes, etc) and they better be effecient. The striking better be a tool to set up the grappling (tenderization.) The grappling better be used to keep the opponent from stopping the effective striking (off balancing or anchoring) and all of it better be able to be isolated (and later integrated seamlessly) so that sparring can be taught at some level.

The big question is how someone spars an art that is "deadly"

Well, honestly, the answer is CAREFULLY. Watch how old sparring happened with bokken before the pansy shinais were used. If you watch the Last Samurai, really good Kenjitsu guys were used to show how the old sword combat arts were. You get hurt training, period. They used hardwood wooden swords which could be fatal by themselves. Full power and full speed swings were used during sparring. Think about how many BJJ meatheads this would eliminate from your classes because people couldn't control their egos. It takes years to control your hits and aim them at actual efficient targets. Call it bullshit? Ok. Look at those who are called amazing in MMA. When you think about it, they're not THAT amazing. Most of them are just martial arts lifers who didn't just get into mma because of the UFC. They'd been training since they were very little. Rickson Gracie, a technician. Fedor, lifelong student since he was a kid, a heavyhanded technician. Anderson Silva, oh yeah, he just started a few years ago. . .HUH? Talk about pin point accuracy with power and broken rhythm. These guys are the exception, but that's the level all martial artists had to be at when their lives were on the line. They LIVED TO TRAIN, and they didn't stop improving until they died. That's the old school, pre-sport martial arts.

Combat arts, the real, unfiltered, unwatered down ones, are not around anymore for the most part. People think they're doing them, but they're not. People in this country are far too soft to take repeated elbows to the body, jaw, neck, inner knee, etc. Real punches in the face with no gloves....all these are the norm (of course with control but you still get hit) in a real combat school. Look into the sparring that goes into the real old hardcore family styles of Filipino Kali. You get hit, buddy. Huge welts the size of cigars all over your body, if you can't take it you can't train. At my Silat school, the PDT academy, we lose students all the time to "oh man, you guys hit too hard" or "I'm injured and it never heals" etc. If you can't take it, leave. If you don't like to get hit, you wont like our school. If you don't like to be controlled violently and decisively (hit during the grappling) as part of drilling, cooperative and aggressive non-cooperative, you wont like it.

Bottom line is, yes, you need to be able to do grappling and it better be good. You better be able to dish out and deal with heavy forward pressure...high (head), middle (waist or torso), or low (legs and feet). You'd better be able to deal with 2 hands, elbows, feet, shins knees headbutts and forearms coming at you at very high speed with little or no warning, and you'd better not have to think about anything. If you can't, don't bother doing it.

Assuming all that, what strategies are the most successful? The funny thing is, the highest percentage strategies are usually the same. if you crash to close range and just hug someone and push them back, it stops most striking because there's too much forward pressure. Forward pressure is the answer. Take away space to attack and their balance too. There are very efficient ways to do this besides just some tackles or basic trips. If you want to see an excellent but basic idea of how our art does this same thing, watch Yori Nakamura (He showed Eric Paulson almost everything he knows) doing our type of Pentjak Silat, Bukti Negara. This is an old fashioned family art of silat. It is the most perfect blend of grappling pressure with flash breaks, and extremely close range striking, ground grappling, multiple opponent training and weapons I have ever seen. You should all experience it. And yes, we spar our asses off (no it doesn't look as pretty as how Yori Nakamura is demoing it when we spar.) Here is a decent clip with the basic idea.

YouTube - Yori Nakamura - Kali Silat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smDrrLppVgc)

The non-weapons portion is Bukti Negara. Of course, the art can be sparred all grappling, all hitting, or both together, and I guarantee you've never seen anything like it.

If you doubt Yori's skill or experience, keep in mind 2 things. First: This is a clip of a little of his grappling and JKD.

YouTube - Yori Nakamura Jeet Kune Do & Shooto 中村頼永 ジークンドー & 修斗 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13RpLNIOrPE)

Who here dares to say they have 10% of that skill???? That guy is both Satoru Sayama and Dan Inosanto's most talented student!

He wouldn't be bothering with Paul De Thouars' Bukti Negara if it wasn't a real deal combat art that worked against Muay Thai, boxing, grappling, etc. If it's good, it has to hold its own.

Here are some more clips of my old Sifu Nakamura at work, this is true skill:
(look ma, NO GI! )
YouTube - Yori Nakamura shows Shooto Lockflow #1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox_lMMZrGPo)

YouTube - shooto demo 1992 Chinatown Los Angeles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzStu7jooQY)

So....I guess he's just no good because he's not doing Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

And I guess I'm full of it because I chose a combat proven art that isn't sport?

Hmm.

Kentucky Fried Chokin
10/04/2008 12:14am,
http://nobodyhere.org/psyduck.gif

TheRuss
10/04/2008 12:32am,
Here is my elegant three-point rebuttal:

1) TL
2) DR
3)

http://nobodyhere.org/psyduck.gif

Edit: If I keep straying from the safe haven that is PTDH, I might as well make Psyduck my avatar and signature.

Lily
10/04/2008 12:37am,
You should just get a plush Psyduck outfit, kill 2 birds with one stone.

Kentucky Fried Chokin
10/04/2008 12:38am,
Then have your name legally changed to psyduck and have tattooed on your chest.

TheRuss
10/04/2008 12:39am,
You should just get a plush Psyduck outfit, kill 2 birds with one stone.

This is just a ploy to satisfy your Pokemon fetish, isn't it?