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Spezza
12/28/2006 2:57pm,
I know that most people who study with a Gracie family member learn the entire Gracie Self-Defense curriculum. (Of course, there are some notable exceptions, such as Renzo's school which does not emphasize it.).

But I am interested in who here learns BJJ from a non-Gracie Black Belt and learns a "self-defense" curriculum.

The further one gets from "Gracie BJJ" it seems the less the Self-Defense curriculum is emphasized. But also, the "further" one gets away from a Gracie the more variations I have seen in the self-defense techniques themselves.

(FWIW, I am from Carlson-lineage school that has a somewhat different self-defense curriculum than the "Torrance Gracie" lineage)


So who practices a BJJ "self-defense" curriculum at their school...????

Thanks!

UpaLumpa
12/28/2006 3:08pm,
On rare occassions we all groan because our coach has us go over defenses against bearhugs and other stupid ****. We're almost as close as you can get, based on authorship, to the gracie sd stuff and don't give a **** about it.

We're a bjj/subgrappling/mma school. Selfdefense is for wimps.

RoninPimp
12/28/2006 3:11pm,
Its taught at the school where I train.

Cassius
12/28/2006 3:13pm,
On rare occassions we all groan because our coach has us go over defenses against bearhugs and other stupid ****. We're almost as close as you can get, based on authorship, to the gracie sd stuff and don't give a **** about it.

We're a bjj/subgrappling/mma school. Selfdefense is for wimps.Yeah, I think that's the reaction of all serious grapplers.

UpaLumpa
12/28/2006 3:15pm,
Its taught at the school where I train.
Do you really give a **** about it?

Pandinha
12/28/2006 3:17pm,
I've had the chance to train at a Helio and a Carlson school.

At Torrance, SD is more emphasized during the private classes. It's mostly pure grappling in the group. Every once in awhile, a takedown from being punched at will be taught, as well as the usual head lock escapes, etc...

At ATT, Ricardo will mix up the training. For instance, we did leglocks one day, and to show us how it would work in a real world sceanario, we did it from bear hugs from the hips. I thought it really helped me see the technique better.

Res Judicata
12/28/2006 3:19pm,
SD stuff is taught at Renzo's. Just infrequently.

Cassius
12/28/2006 3:22pm,
So what you are saying is that there is "dead" practiced in GJJ schools?It's always been practiced in an alive manner for me. It's just gay.

Cassius
12/28/2006 3:28pm,
In what way is it practiced in an alive manner. OK, let's just use the punch for example. How is that done in a way that makes it alive?The same way BJJ is trained in an alive manner. You start with a slow "dead" drill and pick up speed and intensity until you are actually doing it, and move on to a more complex series of exchanges.

THE FACT THAT IT'S ALIVE DOESN'T SAVE IT FROM BEING GAY AND BOOOORRRING.

Cassius
12/28/2006 3:39pm,
Why are we still talking about this? Shouldn't we be discussing Near Side X-guard (http://www.aesopian.com/113/what-robson-moura-taught-leo/) or something equally as useful?

UpaLumpa
12/28/2006 3:51pm,
Why are we still talking about this? Shouldn't we be discussing Near Side X-guard or something equally as useful?
How about I just spend several posts extolling the virtues of a paper cutter pass as the move that has replaced baseball chokes for me as the unstoppable and utterly cheap submission of my arsenal? I'm semi-self banning myself from doing them on anyone not a purple (with the exception of two blues that give me fits, and I'll use it on the other blues once a day to remind them why they don't like me as a person).

So here goes: You're performing the standard double underhook pass. Ideally you've got both hands clasped and your arms around knee height, and clamping the knees together. You then go through the same stacking motion driving their knees to their nose. From their you palm down (thumb in) grab a lapel, slide around the legs (don't toss them like a noob, slide around them). As your sliding, reach under their ass and grab their waist band. Pull their hips as high off the ground as you can while doing a paper cutter. Ideally your top knee is in their armpit.

Voila, they're gurgling and half the class can see their crack.

Pandinha
12/28/2006 3:52pm,
How about I just spend several posts extolling the virtues of a paper cutter pass as the move that has replaced baseball chokes for me as the unstoppable and utterly cheap submission of my arsenal? I'm semi-self banning myself from doing them on anyone not a purple (with the exception of two blues that give me fits).

So here goes: You're performing the standard double underhook pass. Ideally you've got both hands clasped and your arms around knee height, and clamping the knees together. You then go through the same stacking motion driving their knees to their nose. From their you palm up grab a lapel, slide around the legs (don't toss them like a noob, slide around them). As your sliding, reach under their ass and grab their waist band. Pull their hips as high off the ground as you can while doing a paper cutter. Ideally your top knee is in their armpit.

Voila, they're gurgling and half the class can see their crack.
Nice pass quick question, are you still stacking as well?

edit to add: why palm up, should it not be down?

Cassius
12/28/2006 3:56pm,
Upa really hit the nail on the head, guys Generally when I am in barfights, I think it is important to take my time and really work for position. The best street technique for me so far is definitely the mounted omoplata. The mounted omoplata has many advantages in a life or death situation. For instance, it transitions easily to a locoplata (mounted gogoplata for you neophytes), and there is definite wristlock potential there as well. But what really puts it up there for me is how easily it transitions into collar chokes. Many's the time that I have been trying to omoplata some fool at a strip club, when he defends that and I have to transition to a bow and arrow choke or maybe even a wing choke. Sky's the limit, really.

UpaLumpa
12/28/2006 3:58pm,
Anthony,
Already fixed the second. It is indeed a different grip than I first wrote.
Once you"ve passed their legs youre not really stacking them any more. Youre more lifting their hips up into the air. Their legs will flop down so the stack is off but since youre driving their trachea to the mat they probably dont care.

Spezza
12/28/2006 4:22pm,
I think a lot of the apathy (for lack of a better word) towards the "self-defense" techniques in a lot of BJJ schools, stems partially from the way they are trained. A lot of teachers do not like them, but teach them because they think they "should" because they are a part of the art. I think that lack of enthusiasm comes through sometimes.

FWIW, my teacher is one of these in that, like many schools, we do the "self-defense" once in a while. A few years back, I had the opportunity to do the S.D. with Prof. Barretto (8th degree) and got really "into" this neglected part of BJJ. I set out to learn as much as I could about this part of the art.

The S.D. is like any other part of BJJ; people know it on different levels. Just like some Black Belts have great leg locks and some have pretty sad leg locks, so too with "self-defense" techniques. You can bet a BJJ player who "hates leg locks" will not be very skilled at them, likewise, someone who only teaches the self-defense out of a sense of obligation will not have anything special to offer.


Lately when I teach, I have been doing a lot of the S.D. curriculum. A lot of the students knew some, but I am making an effort for them to really learn it more deeply.

Here is one progression I learned, that we have done with the self-defense techniques:

-Do the basic technique, no resistance. Work on technique and understanding the "hows" & "whys" of the technique.

-Do the technique with some resistance from your partner.

-Start with your eyes closed, opponent applies a pre-determined attack (e.g. front choke, headlock, bear hug) full force. (Just closing your eyes adds a whole new dimention to the technique practice).

-Start with your eyes closed, opponent applies ANY of the attacks for which you have learned a defense, full force. (Since youhave no visual cues to see the attack coming, it creates little bit of a "startle" response).

-With a group of students who have the techniques technically "down", form a "circle of terror"; everyone is in a circle with their eyes closed and one person is the "attacker". The "attacker" can attack anyone in the circle with any of the holds. This creates more of a startle/suprise because you don't know if you will be attacked or how you will be attacked. You will see a more" true to life" reaction time from the students.

-Start with your eyes closed, as above, but add yelling and turn it into more of a full "scenario".


Obviously, this "progression" is done over multiple classes; you don't move onto the next level until you/the students are pretty solid at the current level.

I have found this method REALLY helps make the techniques more functional and is MUCH more enjoyable for everyone.

UpaLumpa
12/28/2006 4:38pm,
^^gay