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View Full Version : Agree or Disagree: One step self-defense is effective.



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Askari
12/23/2006 9:13am,
In my BJJ self-defense class, taught by a Rickson Graice Black Belt, we did one-step type stuff almost exclusively.

Guy throws a haymaker, you block the punch, get the clinch, hip throw, and finish with an armbar. Stand up and repeat.
I dont consider the repitition of techniques to be teh d3adly "One Step Sparring." When I hear of One Step Sparring what first comes to my mind is something like this:

SENSEI: Class execute One-Step Number Seventeen
CLASS: Yes Sensei!
SENSEI: From a parallel ready stance facing the opponent:

1. Yap step left to avoid the opponent's punch while executing a right hand hooking block.
2. Grasping the opponent's punching arm, immediately execute a right leg middle roundhouse kick to the opponent's floating rib area, followed by a right leg high roundhouse kick to the opponent's face.
3. Pulling the opponent down slightly with your right hand, recoil your leg and immediately execute a right leg hook kick to the opponent's head.
4. In recoiling your leg, execute a right leg roundhouse kick to the opponent's head.
5. Recoil your right leg and turn 180 clockwise, keeping hold of your opponent's right arm but allowing it to rotate in your grip as you turn.
6. Immediately execute a right shoulder bar takedown (forcing the opponent to the ground).
7. Pin the opponent's right arm with your left hand and execute a right hand ridge-hand strike to the opponent's espophagus and kiap.
8. Return to a standing position and assume a comfortable fighting stance.

That was edited from http://www.triangletkd.org/students/onesteps/oss1620.html

Which is absolute crap and completely different from the repititon of technique that is required to become better at fighting.

In the JJ class:

JOE: All right class now we do armbar.
CLASS: Yes Sensei
JOE: Put right hand here, turn hips, put left leg here, do armbar

DerAuslander
12/23/2006 10:56am,
Didn't you mean with, there? :icon_twis And yes, it's quite cool. The non-experienced (In this field) couldn't possibly visualise it.

- Maarten Sebastiaan Franks Spijker

Gotta love those Freudian slips.

King Sleepless
12/23/2006 1:41pm,
Yeah, my original intent was to -rep everyone who agreed with me and my bias and polarized position. But I lost motivation after we started talking about hot girls in tights.

Askari
12/23/2006 2:12pm,
Yeah, my original intent was to -rep everyone who agreed with me and my bias and polarized position. But I lost motivation after we started talking about hot girls in tights.Is there an election for troll of the year going on? We must have a new HOF style award.

And yes, the thread drift was well worth the visit.

DerAuslander
12/23/2006 2:19pm,
Women make you lose motivation?

Punisher
12/23/2006 3:26pm,
I dont consider the repitition of techniques to be teh d3adly "One Step Sparring." When I hear of One Step Sparring what first comes to my mind is something like this:

SENSEI: Class execute One-Step Number Seventeen
CLASS: Yes Sensei!
SENSEI: From a parallel ready stance facing the opponent:

1. Yap step left to avoid the opponent's punch while executing a right hand hooking block.
2. Grasping the opponent's punching arm, immediately execute a right leg middle roundhouse kick to the opponent's floating rib area, followed by a right leg high roundhouse kick to the opponent's face.
3. Pulling the opponent down slightly with your right hand, recoil your leg and immediately execute a right leg hook kick to the opponent's head.
4. In recoiling your leg, execute a right leg roundhouse kick to the opponent's head.
5. Recoil your right leg and turn 180 clockwise, keeping hold of your opponent's right arm but allowing it to rotate in your grip as you turn.
6. Immediately execute a right shoulder bar takedown (forcing the opponent to the ground).
7. Pin the opponent's right arm with your left hand and execute a right hand ridge-hand strike to the opponent's espophagus and kiap.
8. Return to a standing position and assume a comfortable fighting stance.

That was edited from http://www.triangletkd.org/students/onesteps/oss1620.html

Which is absolute crap and completely different from the repititon of technique that is required to become better at fighting.


You seem to be talking about content when I'm talk about method of drill. To me one-steps are prearranged chains of techniques done with a compliant partner. Replace the stupid TKD moves in your example with BJJ moves and you get exactly what I was talking about:



SENSEI: Class we're going to learn a defense against a punch.
CLASS: Yes Sensei!
SENSEI: Facing each other in opposite leads, your opponet throws a right haymaker.

1. Step forward and to the left and block your opponent's punch. Make sure you end up with a thumbless grip with your fingers of the back his arm.
2. Keeping a hold of the opponent's punching arm, immediately close to a clinch.
3. Execute hip throw,still keeping ahold of the arm.
4. Once you opponent hits the ground, close in tight and put yor knee in his ribs/chest.
5. Slip your right foot under his body, left leg over his head, and sit back to apply the arm bar.
6. Return to a standing position and assume a comfortable fighting stance.

DerAuslander
12/23/2006 3:41pm,
Yeah, my original intent was to -rep everyone who agreed with me and my bias and polarized position. But I lost motivation after we started talking about hot girls in tights.

http://x59.xanga.com/a7fd27e50423597145567/m68156600.jpg

I'm sorry.

What'd you say?

Doctor X
12/23/2006 4:27pm,
I utterly agree with that post.

Whatever its point is.

--J.D.

Askari
12/23/2006 4:53pm,
SENSEI: Class we're going to learn a defense against a punch.
CLASS: Yes Sensei!
SENSEI: Facing each other in opposite leads, your opponet throws a right haymaker.

1. Step forward and to the left and block your opponent's punch. Make sure you end up with a thumbless grip with your fingers of the back his arm.
2. Keeping a hold of the opponent's punching arm, immediately close to a clinch.
3. Execute hip throw,still keeping ahold of the arm.
4. Once you opponent hits the ground, close in tight and put yor knee in his ribs/chest.
5. Slip your right foot under his body, left leg over his head, and sit back to apply the arm bar.
6. Return to a standing position and assume a comfortable fighting stance.
Hi Punisher,

The combo you are describing is really only two movements, hip throw and arm bar. Drilling these in combo doesnt rise to the craptacular level.

The TKD version that I quoted includes SEVEN distinct movements chained together linked to a numbering system.

Imagine going to a class where you have to memorize distinct response patterns involving each having SEVEN or more distinct movements.

So the one step system is a memorization of lengthy response patterns to singular Pavlovian type initiators. In order for this to parallel a Jiu-Jitsu class you would have to have something like:

Attacker goes for double underhooks, Without stoping I execute the following:

One Step Sparring Number 12:
1: O-Uchi Gari
2: Flying Arm Bar
3: Knee on Belly to Arm Bar
4: Roll to guard
5: Punch opponent 8 times
6: Scissor Sweep
7: Mount to arm bar

AND the partner is completely compliant.

Now class time to memorize One Step Sparring Number 13, where our opponent again attacks with double underhooks, but we have to respond with another chain:

1: Deadly Eye Gouge,
2: Ko-Soto-Gari
3: Flying Triangle
4: Transition to Oma-Plata
5: Release the OP and go for the back
6: Hit him 7 times
7: RNC
8: Transition to arm bar

AGAIN, the partner does not fight back and gives me no reason to transition to these other techniques.

This would be a very crappy method of training no matter what style or content was being considered. But dont worry, if your good someone will eventually teach you the secret Elbow Strike Number 12 that is only available to truly advanced students.

DAYoung
12/23/2006 5:35pm,
...the secret Elbow Strike Number 12 that is only available to truly advanced students.

The WHAT?

Why wasn't I told about this earlier? I know 1-11, but I hadn't even heard of 12 until know.

THEY LIED TO ME.

*sobs*

*stops sobbing because tears are wasted Vital Jing*

TKD Black Belt
12/23/2006 5:51pm,
The WHAT?

Why wasn't I told about this earlier?

Um, cause then it wouldn't be SECRET Elbow Strike 12 now would it?

TKD

DAYoung
12/23/2006 5:59pm,
Um, cause then it wouldn't be SECRET Elbow Strike 12 now would it?

TKD

See, this is why you're a professional fighter, and I only do tai chi.

I bow to your authority.

Ritualistically.

http://www.pureland-victoria.org/plc/slot/section/p101/9fd3b4f87_47.gif

HonkyTonkMan
12/23/2006 6:29pm,
How about this one..?



Lead leg round kick
Lead leg round kick
Lead hand knife hand strike
Reverse punch
Jump back with guards up


or this one....

Lead leg snap kick
Jab (saying" best "as you punch)
Cross (saying "effort" as you punch)
Jab (saying "sir" as you punch)

Step back and yell with guards up.

"Best Effort Sir!"



or better yet, this one.....

Lead leg round kick
Spinning side kick (back Kick)
jab
cross

jump back and yell w/guards up


I gots lots of 'em.....I teach TKD.

Askari
12/23/2006 7:07pm,
I gots lots of 'em.....I teach TKD.
I used to teach __ing __un, we all have our cross to bare. Sort of like if we admitted to playing D&D when we were kids.
"Best Effort Sir!"
Now that is funny.
Lead leg round kick
Spinning side kick (back Kick)
jab
crossAre you retracting the round kick prior to the back kick? Because if you are you are loosing a lot of power.

Striking combinations arent an issue with me, especially if you are working them onto pads and sparring the same combos as a regular part of your training - (Edited to add: even if it is only TKD (Grin)). But, overly complex stupidity and rote memorization of same really bugs me.

Punisher
12/23/2006 7:11pm,
Hi Punisher,

The combo you are describing is really only two movements, hip throw and arm bar. Drilling these in combo doesnt rise to the craptacular level.

The TKD version that I quoted includes SEVEN distinct movements chained together linked to a numbering system.

Imagine going to a class where you have to memorize distinct response patterns involving each having SEVEN or more distinct movements.

So the one step system is a memorization of lengthy response patterns to singular Pavlovian type initiators.



I see what your are saying, but I think you're still talking about BAD ONE-STEPS, versus one steps as a training tool. Once again, in my view, one-steps are simply prearranged technique chains done with a compliant partner. They can be of any length and the good ones have moves that logically flow from one to the next.


I also think you are also understating the complexity of your typical BJJ move compared to a TKD move. And armbar is a lot more complicated than a round kick. You even alluded to that yourself when you counted hitting your opponent 7 times as one move.

You could also condense the numer of "moves" in your TKD sequence, just as you did in my BJJ example.

1. Right hand hooking block. (Doesn't count as a move since you didn't count it in the BJJ)
2. Right low-high kick to body and head.
3. Right hook kick to head.
4. Right roundhouse kick to head.
5. Shoulder bar takedown
6. Right hand ridge-hand strike to the opponent's espophagus.

Now that seems like 5 total movements, but moves 2-4 can easily also be condensed into one "movement". A round-hook-round combo is no sweat for a TKDer or kick boxer. So now you're down to three moves.

Still not an effective fighting combination, and still not anything to do on the street, but it can be a useful drill to help the student learn how to block a punch, develop their kicks, and execute a takedown.

Punisher
12/23/2006 7:14pm,
Overly complex stupidity and rote memorization of same really bugs me.

Agreed.