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Eddie
12/09/2006 4:37am,
Hey,

I'm Eddie, I lurk a lot - but now I've decided to post - ain't life changeable?
So I watched the video of the old Aikido chap getting his **** ruined by the Karate guy and I got to thinking - when did people get so fucking stupid?

I mean - there must have been a time in that old guys life when he decided he was going to set up a school completely packed full of ****. There *must* have been a moment when he decided to **** off principles and decency and just go crazy with arm waving, black gi wearing etc and get himself a bunch of students weak in mind and body to fall down at his command.

Now, if he was a complete scam artist, if he knew that he was just making this crap up as he went along and that he couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper nunnery why in the name of **** did he agree to fight this guy??

When Radford Davis was challenged he backed out with a list of excuses. He knew he wouldn't win - he knew he would loose face and, most of all I'd imagine, he knew he would get hurt.

This guy though - this guy either knew and didn't care or... he thought he would fucking win. Lets hear that one again... he though he would fucking win.

wow.

This problem extends to a lot of things. I wish fights looked like Kung Fu movies, I wish it was possible to be a ninja and disable your opponent with a couple of strikes or an effortless technique (as shown in 90% of martial art videos on the Internet) but it's not.
I remember thinking about studying Ninjutsu for a while - I really thought that it could offer something. So I looked around - read up a lot, watched all the clips I could get my hands on etc but at the end of the day, I just couldn't shake off the feeling that it was staged. That there was no effort, no realism, no contact, nothing.

I don't think I'm that smart (I look forward to that being quoted back at me) but from the information I had availible to me I could tell I would be wasting my time by attending a Ninjutsu class.

I'm not saying that Ninjutsu is *as* bad as that guy waving his arms and 'making' his students fall down but, as far as I could tell, it blew... hard.

So my question is: When do people stop thinking? When does a rational adult (I can forgive teenagers below 15 for being dense) look at a 'martial art' with no sparing, only one range of combat covered (but under the impression 'one range works for all', no pressure testing to speak of, demonstrated on totally compliant people and think

"Fucking hell! This stuff is the real deal!" ??

When does someone, who might not be a complete mental in other walks of life, completely hang up common sence and perception and say "yes, compliant partner work is going to make me very very good at fighting - that'll stop Jim from Marketing lording it up over me with his fancy new car/wife/drug addiction/whatever"

Why do people buy into this ****? Who are the people that fall down at 'Dim Mak Chi Blast Dojo's'? Who are the people that see compliant Aikido, Taiji, Ninjutsu etc and think that = fighting? What's the mentality? Why do people want to believe?

So there you go, my fourth post in over 2 years I think - I thought about posting in Newbie town but then I decided it'd be shiteen times cooler to post in the big bad world.

Cheers :occasion1

Eddie.

Epicurus
12/09/2006 4:46am,
Lurkers give me the creeps.

The points you raise are ones that my friends and I had discussed in great depth on our own time. Why the **** DID that old man step up? You mention Radford Davis. Ashida Kim also comes to mind, or our beloved Mr. Dillman. These people have to understand on some level, like all delusionals of this sort, that their **** does not work on real people. Here's my guess as to the old man's story:

The old guy probably started out having been taught by a bullshitter. When he opened his school he probably taught at least some proper aikido techniques. As time went on and his students were weeded out to those who needed to believe in his amazing powers, he began to have some fun and do some no-touch stuff. In time he found that both he and the students enjoyed it so much that he slid all the way down the slippery slope into la-la land with his twenty-man wristlock.

He had to have thought he would win, or at least lose in a way which would give him an excuse and not get his **** ruined. I don't think there was ever a moment where he had to conciously admit to himself he was in a fantasy world; I think he slid into it.

Eddie
12/09/2006 5:03am,
He had to have thought he would win, or at least lose in a way which would give him an excuse and not get his **** ruined. I don't think there was ever a moment where he had to conciously admit to himself he was in a fantasy world; I think he slid into it.

I see your point - I guess things like that happen by small degrees.

I had similar thoughts about his origins too. I assumed he must have done some Aikido to begin with before he no touch knock-outed his sence of worth.

It makes me wonder what he's doing now though - very few people who live in la-la land are pulled out of it so violently I'd imagine - He had to come face to face with the fact that everything he's spent maybe years doing is total crap.

I can see why people (like the Dim Mak guy who slapped the reporter) have to make up cover stories like "it doesn't work on trained athletes" and other such **** and fluff because if they didn't their whole world would just... collapse.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Aikido guy continues teaching, and retains quite a few students. As long as he can say that "the Chi wasn't aligned" or "it doesn't work in a sports enviroment, it's only for the streets!" fast enough. **** isn't it?

Epicurus
12/09/2006 5:20am,
Sometimes people will give up their delusions when they are faced with proof (when I watched some UFC matches, a switch turned over in my head), but if someone has enough invested in their fantasy, like a martial arts instructor who has built a living off of convincing people who want to be convinced that a no-touch KO is possible, their two options are either to accept the proof and begin building an entirely new life from scratch, or to make up an excuse and eventually come to believe it.

Rock Ape
12/09/2006 6:16am,
Hey,

I'm Eddie, I lurk a lot - but now I've decided to post - ain't life changeable?
So I watched the video of the old Aikido chap getting his **** ruined by the Karate guy and I got to thinking - when did people get so fucking stupid?Go back to lurking, RETARD.

Virus
12/09/2006 6:27am,
Well as someone who used to believe in ninjitsu, (perhaps this is a testament to my extreme intellectual arrogance) I used to think that if it checked out well in my own head, then it must work. I put hypothesis over practice. Of course I also used to believe that it must work becuase it was for "da b4ttl3field". But also at that time I had never heard of BJJ or MMA. I used to buy the line that sparring isn't a real fight and fosters dependance on "safe" techniques and "rules". But that was the only thing I knew at the time. The instructor said it, all the other students said it, everyone I knew in the organisation said it. There was no alternative.

Virus
12/09/2006 6:30am,
If you want to know why people get fooled, familarise yourself with the common problems with human thought. The scientific method exists to minimise the impact of these flawed aspects of our natural thinking on our judgements and observations.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Donkey_Fizzle
12/09/2006 6:31am,
You live a lie so long you begin to believe it.

Virus
12/09/2006 6:36am,
The thing is most of human society has always believed in things that aren't true. Religion for instance.

alex
12/09/2006 6:53am,
yep, never underestimate the power of belief. or denial. if theres one thing studying psychology has taught me its that people will fight tooth and nail for the things they want to be true to REALLY be true. this is what sets humans apart, this is why we can be both so fucking awesome and so very goddamn retarded at the same time

Shinshoryu
12/09/2006 6:56am,
Lack of information (voluntary or involuntary) is the mother of all stupid reasoning. You don't seem to escape from this fact either, but don't worry, it's impossible to know everything; that's when being a little humble on your statements comes in handy.

Eddie
12/10/2006 2:59am,
Go back to lurking, RETARD.

Go back? Are you crazy it's fucking dark in there...


this is what sets humans apart, this is why we can be both so fucking awesome and so very goddamn retarded at the same time

Very true - as has been said, as long as there is someone to spout **** out there'll be someone to lick it up - or vice versa*


Lack of information (voluntary or involuntary) is the mother of all stupid reasoning. You don't seem to escape from this fact either, but don't worry, it's impossible to know everything; that's when being a little humble on your statements comes in handy.

I agree totally - I'd be the first to admit I don't know **** all about most things. Still, I don't think it's stupid reasoning to think that no contact 'martial' arts = shite. It doesn't matter what that art is, no contact Muay Thai is gonna blow compared to Contact Aikido.

At the end of the day, no one has anything other than the information available to them to make a judgement on something - I guess if the guy who's smart enough in every other walk of life but then takes up a zero contact art and believes he's gonna be the next undisputed master of the universe has no previous information about fighting arts then he could be forgiven for making such a mistake.

On the other hand - almost everyone has seen a boxing match or had a scrap in school or seen one, so people must have some idea what a fight looks like to know that what they're doing doesn't look the same.

Still, as Alex said, never underestimate the power of denial.

On a side note, if someone had painted the old guy blue and given him a hat ... :icon_bigs



*an unnecessarily fucking disgusting metaphor

Doctor X
12/10/2006 5:09am,
Great thread.

It is very easy to put oneself into a bubble and feed into a delusion. This is why I find obvious cracked critical thinking like Holocaust Denial and Young Earth Creationism rather fascinating. Leave aside the frauds--the racists, Master-Race Wannabes, and hypocrites--dherents cherry-pick data they receive in a comfortable environment. Challenges are explained and dismissed.

Two stories: the first involves a now Senior-Senior-Senior regarding when he first started teaching as a shodan or even--gasp!--a nidan. He was "invincible" in his class. So he entered a tournament back in the early 70s and, as he put it, a Japanese practitioner, "who did not know my rank nor really cared," promptly planted his foot in his gut and sent him right out of the area. He had the literal "wind knocked out of him." Basically, he had fooled himself that beating students--who would not really challenge "sensei"--meant he was keeping up his skills.

The second story involves a classic study of cults: When Prophecy Fails. Basically, some sociologists studied a cult that predicted the end of the world. Obviously, it did not happen.

No, TKD Blackbelt, the world did not end. No . . . I do not care what you heard.

Now the sociologists figured when the cult leader's prophecy of the end of the world failed, her followers would flee. Not quite. She came up with some ridiculous explanation. The failure merely weeded out the doubters. Those who really believed were willing to buy into a new lie rather than admit they had been fooled.

So do not worry! You will never be taken down . . . you have the anti-grapple . . . and there is lava and squirrels down there . . . no one will punch your lights out so keep your hands down . . . ancient history says your kicks killed samurai . . . and stuff.

Oh and all of the bad people simply grab your wrists.

--J.D.

FormatC
12/10/2006 5:42pm,
yep, never underestimate the power of belief. or denial ... this is what sets humans apart, this is why we can be both so fucking awesome and so very goddamn retarded at the same time
I nominate this for 'brilliant post of the week.'

The yin and the yang of existence, manifest through humanity and described oh so poetically by Alex. :)

Happycrow
12/10/2006 11:01pm,
The thing is most of human society has always believed in things that are unfalsifiable. Religion for instance.

Fixed.

Aristotle's argument on the Prime Mover (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument)coincides nicely with Big Bang Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang_theory), thus providing religious folks a lot of cosmological wiggle room, and giving agnosticism a significantly lower bar to hurdle than actual atheism. Not religious, but given the topic at hand, it seemed appropriate.

Yes, I typed Big Bang. Those of you who are still living at home may now insert dick jokes.

RunningDog
12/10/2006 11:36pm,
Eddie the Lurker... this is a subject which chills me to the bone...

I was roped in to _ing _un delusions for years, to my shame.
Speaking personally, the main reasons my rational though processes failed me for so long were:

* My teachers genuinely believed the rubbish they told me, so they told it convincingly.

* I was in a bubble: Limited knowledge of other MAs meant I bought into arguments like "you can flow round karate or boxing blocks like water, because their blocks are hard"... sheesh

* The 'science' stuff chunners spout attracts people who are naturally skeptical about Chi/Ki, as I was. The irony is it's kind of worse. It's a parody of science - empirical evidence is an inconvenience, brushed under the carpet by chunners.

* The mindset 'well, I'm not sure whether I can fight, but I've come this far so I might as well carry on...'

*'Secret' or advanced techniques. Some stuff is held back for years. The 'deadly' stuff especially. Maybe that's why people still can't fight for **** even after 5 years of _ing _un... they don't have the deadly techniques yet...

*There were a few people I trained with, and a few instructors who actually had lots of fighting experience. What didn't twig at the time though, was that they were doormen. Who do bouncers fight? That's right. Drunk fuckers. Want to fight drunks? Do _ing _un.

*Other ignorant people were impressed when I told them about Wangy Chong, thus making me feel like cool.

*Your uniform gets progressively cooler as you go on. I had a black uniform with red bits at the end, and thought it was badass. Now considering cutting it up for oilrags.

I can't get back those wasted years, but if someone asks me about wangy cunting changy now, I don't mince words.