PDA

View Full Version : Shaolin Kempo



Pages : [1] 2

metalforlunch
12/06/2006 9:32pm,
I posted this elsewhere but they told me to post here, so anyways....
Shaolin Kempo Karate. I've been training in it for about 5 and a half years, and although I rarely ever get into fights, I seem to be able to hold my own against people who are larger than me (I'm 5'8") and most of my friends who are martial artists. The past couple weeks though I've been reading about how it's the laughing stock of the martial arts world. That said, my instructor is a 7th dan and used to be a cop up in worcester Mass, and compared to other villaris schools and shaolin kempo schools who have students transfer to us, the training seems a lot more reality based (no crazy spinning **** in the middle of a technique, no trying to do 15 different moves to counter one punch, etc). His philosophy towards technique is also more of a "keep what feels comfortable, get rid of what doesn't" attitude. That said, I've been gaining more interest in harder styles such as kyokushin karate, muay thai, and jiujutsu. Can anybody here offer any insight into the downfalls of shaolin kempo and what might be a better style to consider training in?

MacWombat
12/06/2006 9:35pm,
How hard and frequent do you spar in your school? What are the rules? Do you have any grappling?

TehDeadlyDimMak
12/06/2006 9:40pm,
Generally respected styles on this board include, but are not limited to: Kyokushin, Muay Thai, Brazilian Jujitsu, Sambo, Sanda/SanShou, Wrestling, Boxing, Non-cardio Kickboxing, and Judo.

The reason these styles are respected is because they consistently demonstrate training with "aliveness." That is training to deal with a resisting opponent verses a compliant one. For instance, a Judoka should be able to toss his opponent even if that opponent is struggling like crazy to break the clinch. Thus, training to deal with this aspect of resistance is necessary.

These styles regularly use live hard sparring or free rolling on top of alive drills. Note that the sparring and rolling has to actually resemble real fighting to be an effective training tool making continuity and resistance incredibly important. If you spar like you would play a game of paddycake then it's not beneficial to your fighting ability in any way.

metalforlunch
12/06/2006 9:41pm,
How hard and frequent do you spar in your school? What are the rules? Do you have any grappling?
We spar as a class infrequently, but when we do the rules are light contact from Green belt to brown belt, no contact under green, full contact from black belt up. The rules are no kicks to the groin, no eye gouges, no kicks to the back unless it's the back of the head. Points aren't called on leg kicks either. I usually go two or three times a week, and oftentime before or after class I try to spar in more of a full contact manner for 10-15 minutes, with throws/takedowns included. As far as grappling it's practiced very infrequently, but we do have techniques for it. The only problem is that I have to ask my instructor three or four times if we can practice the techniques before we actually do them. To address DeadlyDimMak, myself and many of the upper ranking student try to be very uncompliant when we practice with each other, as our instructor stresses that being dojo oriented is what causes people to lose fights on the street. That said, any practice we have to do for that is generally done outside or after class.

TehDeadlyDimMak
12/06/2006 9:43pm,
A search of the Bullshido forums on the general opinion on point sparring should be enlightening.

MacWombat
12/06/2006 9:44pm,
What do you mean by full contact? What decides the win of a round?

sidran
12/06/2006 9:47pm,
I posted this elsewhere but they told me to post here, so anyways....
Shaolin Kempo Karate. I've been training in it for about 5 and a half years, and although I rarely ever get into fights, I seem to be able to hold my own against people who are larger than me (I'm 5'8") and most of my friends who are martial artists. The past couple weeks though I've been reading about how it's the laughing stock of the martial arts world. That said, my instructor is a 7th dan and used to be a cop up in worcester Mass, and compared to other villaris schools and shaolin kempo schools who have students transfer to us, the training seems a lot more reality based (no crazy spinning **** in the middle of a technique, no trying to do 15 different moves to counter one punch, etc). His philosophy towards technique is also more of a "keep what feels comfortable, get rid of what doesn't" attitude. That said, I've been gaining more interest in harder styles such as kyokushin karate, muay thai, and jiujutsu. Can anybody here offer any insight into the downfalls of shaolin kempo and what might be a better style to consider training in?
Sounds similar to my experience. Based on this, I think you're doing fine. One thing, though, you probably have sparring, but what kind? My Villari's school that I used to go to had sparring but it was stop-and-go point sparring, which can actually create bad habits if you focus too much on it. Do you spar continuous with contact? Even if you can get some in with good martial artists outside of class (remember, variety is good) it will be a good thing.

Also, by harder styles, what do you mean? I consider jiujutsu a soft art more than anything. But though Shaolin Kempo Karate does have a jujutsu component, if you can find a good Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or Sambo school in the area, it would be a great supplement, and may help you improve in grappling at Shaolin Kempo Karate (since in my experience it focuses mainly on striking and stand-up grappling).

EDIT: Wow, four posts while I was posting. Well, my comments still stand.

metalforlunch
12/06/2006 9:50pm,
General in class sparring is done with points, usually on a five point scale, untimed rounds with the first to 5 being the winner. That being said I can usually find two or three other people to spar with full contact, where things stop when someone has either been hit too hard to continue, or things go to the ground and someone gets submitted. Our instructors usually don't have much to do with that, so we just figured the guy who got the crap kicked out of him the worst usually lost.

MacWombat
12/06/2006 9:55pm,
That sounds pretty good actually. I can't confirm it unless you have videos, but from your descripition, not too shabby. You still may want to suplement it with other arts. I will not commnet on the quality of your striking or stand up grappling since I know nothing of the art, but from your own description it does seem to have a big hole in teh ground grappling department. Good styles for this are BJJ, Sambo, and submission wrestling. Of course studying any of the styles DimMak gave you will probably add greatly to your skill.

TehDeadlyDimMak
12/06/2006 9:56pm,
Point sparring in general tends to create horrible habits.

Also, full contact sparring is good, but it's much much better when done against and under the supervision of people who are great at it. If you stop at a local boxing gym for example and spar with the regulars there I'm sure you'll have a much differenct experience than if you sparred with your regular buddies.

Also, having a qualified coach that can point out things you're doing wrong does wonders. Qualifications aren't measured in how many dans are on their belts, but by their actual applied experience. Boxing matches, kickboxing matches, Jujitsu tournaments, blah blah blah.

metalforlunch
12/06/2006 9:57pm,
Thanks for the advice, you guys have been very helpful. My instructor has been giving me free aikido lessons, which is kinda cool but a little too passive for me to find much worth in it. It does seem to work better when people grab a hold of you on the wrists or lapels, but beyond that I'm not really loving it and it still isn't making me any better of a ground fighter, which was my original goal.

patfromlogan
12/06/2006 9:59pm,
...so we just figured the guy who got the crap kicked out of him the worst usually lost.

Good one!

metalforlunch
12/06/2006 10:02pm,
again thanks for all the suggestions

MacWombat
12/06/2006 10:03pm,
Thanks for the advice, you guys have been very helpful. My instructor has been giving me free aikido lessons, which is kinda cool but a little too passive for me to find much worth in it. It does seem to work better when people grab a hold of you on the wrists or lapels, but beyond that I'm not really loving it and it still isn't making me any better of a ground fighter, which was my original goal.


Some aikidoka who crosstrain in BJJ can get wristlocks to work on the ground. It doesn't seem like all those years of aikido for just that really seem to translate though. If you are looking for groundfighting most people are gonna suggest BJJ. It will be the easiest to find, least McDojoised, and it's very fun and addicting. However, it is fairly expensive normally.

TehDeadlyDimMak
12/06/2006 10:03pm,
Thanks for the advice, you guys have been very helpful. My instructor has been giving me free aikido lessons, which is kinda cool but a little too passive for me to find much worth in it. It does seem to work better when people grab a hold of you on the wrists or lapels, but beyond that I'm not really loving it and it still isn't making me any better of a ground fighter, which was my original goal.

On this board Aikido is generally famous for being too compliant. While there are Aikido practitioners that practice with aliveness and are for lack of a better term "badass" the large majority tends to be complacent in having their partners give up their wrists and throw themselves.

Throwing styles like Judo are more popular when it comes to throwing an opponent that does not want to be thrown. Styles that tend to emphasize groundfighting the most include Brazilian Jujitsu, Gracie-Barra Jujitsu, and other variants of those styles.

It's important not to get those mixed up with Classical Japanese Jujitsu, which is an extremely broad branch of styles with less consistency when it comes to quality of subject matter.

patfromlogan
12/06/2006 10:05pm,
Vallari's original skill set is from Kajukenbo, so he can't be too messed up, I hope. If the instruction seems headed toward Aikido and not learning ground... Well, If you are having fun with SK and if you are with out the responsiblilties and aches of age, you can work out in a couple schools concurrently.