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MrGalt
12/03/2006 12:59am,
Hey everybody, thought I'd ask if anyone else had heard of some stuff I hear from a friend is being taught in my neck of the woods:

ZANSHINDO: (cribbed from wikipedia)

Zanshindo is a mixed martial art founded in 1997 by Will McCullough and is also known as McCullough Submission Fighting. It is currently taught in Beaufort, SC and Savannah, GA by Sensei Abe Stem and Brittany stem and in Crossville, TN by Sensei Dustin Davis. The first students to earn a Black Shirt/Black Belt were Capt. Dan Hinton (USMC), Derrick Capers (2nd degree), and Dustin Davis (2nd degree).

Zanshindo (The Zanshin Way) - Zanshin is defined as a relaxed state of total awareness allowing complete attention to the moment: the focusing of the mind (without thought or emotion) on everything in and around you.

Zanshindo (aka McCullough Submission Fighting) combines the most realistic and effective training methods and techniques of the following European and Asian martial arts into one system:


Budokan & Matsukazi-Ryu Jujitsu- holds, submissions, takedowns, escapes, & chokes
Muay-Thai Kickboxing- evasive movements, punches, kicks, elbows, & knees
Sambo- a Russian art known for its leg & ankle locks
Aikido- wristlocks, immobilizations, & throws
Freestyle Wrestling- takedowns & groundwork
L.I.N.E.- Marine Corps Close Combat, central nervous system overload theory
Shuai Chiao- throws & sweeps

What really sets Zanshindo apart is not just what it teaches, but how it teaches-through practical training with plenty of one-on-one interaction. Each student is required to learn the techniques completely and then is allowed to teach other students with the help of his or her instructor. This allows for each student to have suggestions and input from several different body types and experience level which in turn will provide a much more well-rounded fighter.

You can read the whole thing here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanshindo)

BTW, since the whole article is just a big advertisement for the art, I'm tempted to nominate it for deletion while I'm thinking about it.

Just looking around on the web, I am inclined to think this is bullshido. Just looking at the components, what do we have?
Matsuzaki-Ryu Jujitsu: a little web searching finds a lot of links to some kind of pressure point wrestling thing. Questionable.
Budo-kan Jujitsu: Budo is well...budo, and kan means "hall," right? So Hall of Budo style? I'm not a judoer but this sounds really generic to me.
Muay Thai: Good. Hard to refute since who couldn't at least learn to go through the motions of the techniques in a little while?
Sambo: Exotic, good claim for an MMA person these days along with MT
Aikido: Hey, anybody who can mix aikido with MT is a god. I can't Kote Gaeshi through boxing gloves for **** :-P
Freestyle Wrestling: One of the instructors was on the high school wrestling team.
L.I.N.E.: It's not a bullshido party til we've invoked the military. The Tennessee instructor says that he (http://www.geocities.com/realh2h/index.html) "has over 13 years experience in martial arts and is a veteran of the Georgia Full Contact, No Holds Barred fight scene. He has trained Marine Corps Close Combat Instructors and Close Combat Instructor Trainers." Surely this is verifiable. How old is this guy? What's his (military) rank? I don't have the search skills here, but it seems like a "close combat instructor trainer [trainer]" should be easy to track down. I don't think I can even bring myself to comment on the nonsense that must be "central nervous system overload theory." A google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22central+nervous+system+overload+theory%22) gives me three results, all from nearly identical wikipedia, answers.com, and geocities webpages.

I can probably do more of this on my own, but if anybody has the time and can find something out about this stuff, I'd be interested in knowing if any of it might have a basis in reality.

Shamash
12/14/2006 8:44pm,
I found two of Dustin Davis' amature mma fights on http://www.iscfmma.com/ISCFNewsA-Sp01.htm. At least he has a verifiable fight record, however; one win and one loss doesn't translate into "a veteran of the Georgia Full Contact, No Holds Barred fight scene." Dustin may very well be a decent fighter, but I can't seem to find anything beyond two or three fights.

This thread seems to be dead and I hope someone will have additional information on Dustin Davis and Zanshindo. I can't seem to find any info on the founder McCullough. For a man who knows a myriad of styles, one would infer that he would have an extensive fight record.

Rock Ape
12/14/2006 8:57pm,
Just to be pedantic;

Zanshin 残心 remaining spirit, is the awareness focused on the opponent and one's surroundings after the execution of a technique, not before.

Fudoshin 不動心 immovable mind however; is the mental state preceeding technique.

Regards

Dave

Askari
12/14/2006 9:06pm,
Mr Galt,

If you are close by to him and have some expertese, why not drop by his club?

They seem to be in to competition and full contact:

http://www.zanshindo.com/

They cross train:

This month, the United Zanshindo Association will be hosting a special seminar in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu / submission grappling featuring Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Brown Belt Andrew Smith as he visits us in Beaufort, SC on November 25th.

No cultish aspects. So maybe a McDojo, but not bullshido.

MrGalt
12/14/2006 10:31pm,
Dave, it's not unwelcome for somebody with good language skills to break things down like that for those of us who aren't so far along. Wasn't there a "Gaijin Do" ninjutsu school posted somewhere on this site? Think of what knowing a little Japanese might have done for that guy.

I thought it would be bullshido if it claims to teach things it can't. They certainly are a small chain of MMA gyms, but anybody can get into a couple of NHB events. Does the fact that this guy has had two fights and won one of them mean he can teach anything?

I'm hoping I can get down to middle TN over the holidays a bit, but I might find that they have taken a winter break just like my employer does. So far I've been meaning to go check out more than one school in that town of questionable provenance for the last year, but my schedule just hasn't let me make the drive in a timely manner.

If I were going to take a guess, I think what I'll find is a group of small town people doing some decently alive training under a reasonably athletic and certainly confident guy. I guess my big question is whether he's teaching what he claims he's teaching or if this is self-taught modified high school wrestling.

Maybe I'm just an ass, but if it's a wrestling gym with an aim toward training for MMA, why not say so? It's when people think they're learning from a guy who knows t3h d34dly from 8 different styles and used to teach Marine Corps Close Combat Instructors trainers that I start worrying. Think about that. By the time you go through the trophic levels here, if you're a Marine, you learned from your Close Combat instructor, who learned from his trainer, who odds are, had to have learned from Mr. Davis. How does such an august personage end up in a tiny town in Tennessee? I don't know how the military really recruits its teachers, but I suspect that someone at that level would have to have an awesome fight record or be some kind of god of pedagogy. If he's faking or exaggerating the military thing, I don't think he's respectable, by which I literally mean, "capable of deserving respect."

Askari
12/15/2006 8:16am,
Does the fact that this guy has had two fights and won one of them mean he can teach anything?Depends on the guy and the opposition. He got in there and is not making up his record. No on thinks they are training with Robert Follis' Team Quest when they go here. (BTW, Follis has never fought MMA yet coached Randy Couture to the UFC belt)
If I were going to take a guess, I think what I'll find is a group of small town people doing some decently alive training under a reasonably athletic and certainly confident guy. I guess my big question is whether he's teaching what he claims he's teaching or if this is self-taught modified high school wrestling.
Which isnt terrible, because it looks like he is claiming to teach high-school wrestling.

The military stuff bugs me, but the rest just looks like standard McDojoism. Without abuse its not really Bullshido.

Shamash
12/15/2006 8:19am,
MrGault, I think AnnaTrocity and KidSpatula live in Atlanta Georgia. Since they compete often, they may know people who have heard of Dustin Davis. Perhaps you should make an inquiry with them.

Rock Ape
12/15/2006 9:08am,
Dave, it's not unwelcome for somebody with good language skills to break things down like that for those of us who aren't so far along. Wasn't there a "Gaijin Do" ninjutsu school posted somewhere on this site? Think of what knowing a little Japanese might have done for that guy."No probs mate.. Like I said, I was being pedantic.

Regards

Dave

Shamash
1/11/2007 12:12am,
MrGalt,

I've did a lot of research (via google-fu) regarding Zanshindo and am still unable to find any info about its founder McCullough. I was pretty impressed that Dustin Davis was man enough to enter a full contact MMA match. Zanshindo seems to encourage realistic competition which puts them way ahead of most schools. Hell I would probably train with them if I lived in a small town and they were the closest thing to MMA.

That being said, I'm only suspicious about the lack of information on McCullough. Since he single handedly combined a **** load of styles into one effecient art, shouldn't there be some type of record? I can't even find a terse bio. If you are still interested in investigating Zanshindo, I recommend sending Dustin Davis a non confrontational email asking about the origin of Zanshindo and where exactly did McCullough learn his myriad of martial arts.

Coach Josh
1/11/2007 9:18am,
Just a quick note about the Marine Corp Combat Program. I enlisted in 89 and there was no such thing. We did some stuff in boot but not t3h d34dly. I am not sure of the year when the new program started but I was out of the Corps at the time. Since then several of my students joined the Corps(I teach high school as well as MA). When they explained the system to me it seemed much better than anything we did when I was in. So being a former Marine I wanted to give back to the beloved Corps. I called up the reservist station in my town and spoke with the training officer. He stated that only Marine Corps personel was allowed to teach or train Marines in the new combat system. I asked if I could do a seminar or other extra activity and was declined. I am not sure if this is SOP for all Marine bases but I am pretty sure its real close. I know in the past MA people have taught the troops but I am inclined to think that now its not the case. If a Marine trains there on his own time its not the same as him being THE Marine Corps' instructor.

Bugeisha
1/11/2007 1:00pm,
I've trained the head of my state's Fighter Jet division, because he and his family joined the dojang I taught at a few years ago. Now, I guess I could say I have taught taekwondo to the Air Force, but that wouldn't quite be the same thing, eh?

MrGalt
1/11/2007 1:14pm,
But he's a fighter pilot, so if you teach him TKD you are not implying that he will subsequently use your training to perform his duties. When you claim to teach MA to a person who teaches close combat to people who teach close combat, the very obvious conclusion your listener is meant to reach is that your instruction is being directly passed down to the troops.

Of course, if your pilot friend ever spins his plane around and wing-slaps another plane a la Hot Shots, you should absolutely claim that you taught him that particular "aerial technique."

OnceLost
1/11/2007 1:21pm,
A half truth is still a whole lie, yes...

realh2h
2/11/2007 12:49pm,
Dustin Davis here.....
I am currently recovering from ACL reconstruction surgery (blew my knee out) but will be teaching again soon & welcome anyone to drop in & see what my training is like. As for some of the questions about me & my style here goes....
When I was in Beaufort, SC training under Will McCullough (himself a Certified Marine Corps Close Combat Instructor & former DI) he had the Close Combat section from Paris Island come out to the school every Saturday which included the Close Combat Instructors & Close Combat Instructor Trainers. They came ther eto train specifically because they needed better training. As a 150 lb Orange Shirt (2nd rank promotion) I would regularly smoke 180-200 lb Marines in both stand-up & ground fighting, they all had great heart & determination, but few skills. This was around 2000 and the USMC was just beginning to develop their MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program), formerly they taught L.I.N.E. I AM NOT a Marine Corps certified instructor, but they did regularly come to my school for training, which I provided numerous times. I would also meet many of them on weekdays for lunchtime training at the STC ( Special Training Center), or another building a few blocks past 'Iron Mike". Then after 9-11 it became hard to get on base for awhile so I wasn't able to go out there. Any Marine stationed at Paris Island from 1995-2003 could probably tell you about the founder Will McCullough as his name was always mentioned with respect there. He too fought NHB in his day but this was before it became widespread and every detail was posted on the "interweb!"
I get so much from my training, not just self defense skills, but life skills as well, & want to share it with others-not to prove anything to others, but to help them. I've already proved everything I need to, to myself, & am quite happy with how I held up to pushing myself as far as I could go. Try it sometime, you'll like it!!!

hardcorps1989
3/19/2008 10:45am,
I can vouch for McCullough. I was stationed at PI from 1998 to 2001 and trained at his school the whole time. As Dustin says, Will was a DI and what was known at the time as a Close Combat Instructor, he left the Marine Corps about 1998. His ranks and claims are valid.

As far as the quality of instruction, its pretty darn good. I have continued training in MMA and grappling styles ever since (my job moved me from Beaufort). I have trained with a few better instructors that Will, but I have also trained with a whole lot more worse ones and some that claim to teach submission fighting or MMA yet appear to have no experience whatsoever.

If you are in Beaufort, or some of the other places like where Dustin is, drop by and check it out.

Any Zanshindo guys out there, please drop me a PM.

jiujitsu4life
9/15/2008 10:11am,
I have attended the zanshindo class Dustin offers. It is a great class for beginners. If you know how to apply a choke, do a take down and slap on a few arm bars then you won't need to take his class. I started noticing the class was a joke when I felt he reached his limit of teaching. The #1 frustrating thing was when a new person came in. He would start back from the beginning of his training. Things that the more experienced already went through. I am a big fan of repetition because I know practice makes perfect but I can get my practice in for free in other places. What I expect from a paid teacher is to teach new techniques not drill the old ones to death. I can drill at home with all of my mma buddies. The #2 issue I had was Dustin clearly had his favorites...people who he thought were prodigies. He gave special attention and instruction to them. What is the problem with that you say???? Because it was on my dollar!! Do that crap on their time not mine.

My opinion about Zanshindo is that your skepticism is right on the money. The only thing he has going for him is the fact that he has hungry students with big hearts and big desires for mma. I don't contribute the success of of his students to him. I know that every one of his "rising stars" seek instruction from at the very least 2 other instructors....outside of zanshindo.

Last but not least..... His record I could care less about. Who he has trained I could care less about. How he trains others I could care less about. How is able to train me I care everything about. He was unable to do so. Maybe I am untrainable? :P I doubt it.

Hope this helps some people. You now have an inside scoop from the other side of the fence.

Peace