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samwise
11/21/2006 7:21am,
Here's a few things I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on...

* Ninjas... um, honestly everyone needs to read http://people.howstuffworks.com/ninja.htm so that they can be enlightened and quit their bitching about ninjas

* Muscles... read a couple of threads just now which contained the happy little topic of muscles. I am surprised that in this environment nobody has come out with a good comment about how muscle size is not equal to muscle strength, to say so is an over simplification despite their obvious relationship. Also I believe tendons have something to do with exertable force, maybe someone can give a bit more here?

* Is there anyone else out there who doesn't like gloves? Also is there a bullshido standard response to the query re the use of gloves?

* Horse stance is a training stance. It is good for what it's meant for. I would not fight in it, but it is not t3h suck as some people like to proclaim :eusa_naug

i have no idea what this smiley is meant to mean :new_blueg

PirateJon
11/21/2006 10:24am,
item:: Ninja's are silly. Unless they're also irish doctors. see http://www.DrMcNinja.com

item :: 99% of the time, the guy with bigger muscles is stronger.

item:: Why train for fighting with a stance you wouldn't use to fight in? if you need a leg workout start doing squats.



Welcome aboard.

Axelton
11/21/2006 11:49am,
yaaargh welcome mateeey

TehDeadlyDimMak
11/21/2006 11:49am,
Here's a few things I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on...

* Ninjas... um, honestly everyone needs to read http://people.howstuffworks.com/ninja.htm so that they can be enlightened and quit their bitching about ninjas

* Muscles... read a couple of threads just now which contained the happy little topic of muscles. I am surprised that in this environment nobody has come out with a good comment about how muscle size is not equal to muscle strength, to say so is an over simplification despite their obvious relationship. Also I believe tendons have something to do with exertable force, maybe someone can give a bit more here?

* Is there anyone else out there who doesn't like gloves? Also is there a bullshido standard response to the query re the use of gloves?

* Horse stance is a training stance. It is good for what it's meant for. I would not fight in it, but it is not t3h suck as some people like to proclaim :eusa_naug

i have no idea what this smiley is meant to mean :new_blueg

1) The idea is that many modern people who claim they train "ninjitsu/ninjutsu/taijutsu/etc." tend to perform extremely poorly when it comes to alive situations. This is mostly due to terrible cooperative training methods among other things.

2) The Dieting and Health section is perfect for this sort of thing. Most people in that subforum realize that bodybuilding/looks don't equal strength, which is why you don't get many bodybuilding routines endorsed over there.

3) The Kyokushin/Enshin guys on here normally don't use gloves when they spar, but they restrict face contact. I think boxing gloves/MMA gloves are necessary for my type of sparring. I'm against the traditional TKD sparring equipment personally.

4) Most people realize it's a training tool, but some people have actually been caught proclaiming iit as a fighting stance, as ridiculous as that seems.

samwise
11/22/2006 7:14am,
item :: 99% of the time, the guy with bigger muscles is stronger. Ok I know you think you have a good argument but so do I. Illustration being this, go to the gym and look around at all the big fuckers that do their workouts and whatever, how many of them do you think can do 100 push ups? And yet this 6 year old did 10000 http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/photo/2006-07/27/content_651249.htm


item:: Why train for fighting with a stance you wouldn't use to fight in? if you need a leg workout start doing squats. Because it's not for fighting. You have missed my point completely. Any exercise is designed with a specific area of improvement in mind, this is just a general principle. Therefore to criticise an exercise based on a deficiency which is not within it's parameters to facilitate is a sign of ignorance, wilful or otherwise.

alex
11/22/2006 7:26am,
1- wow a thousand push ups. now if you said he knocked some 6 foot 200 pound guy out with one punch it would matter. i can do more push ups than a lot of guys i know because im a skinny fucker and there isnt a whole lot of weight for me to lift. doesnt make me strong.

2- so it isnt for fighting and itmakes a shitty leg workout. what the fucks it for then? looking stupid for the camera?

3- as for the gloves, it depends on how realistic you want your training to be. if you want to go with a good level of contact you are going to need gloves or be on very good terms with the local plastic surgeon. or not hit to the face which is ludicrously unrealistic if you are doing it for self defense purposes.

youtube
11/22/2006 8:57am,
i like pirates

PirateJon
11/22/2006 9:21am,
Ok I know you think you have a good argument but so do I. Illustration being this, go to the gym and look around at all the big fuckers that do their workouts and whatever, how many of them do you think can do 100 push ups? And yet this 6 year old did 10000

So... you're saying a 6 year old is stronger than a pro strongman? Really? Interesting take. Real world question on functional strength - which would you rather have help you move?


Because it's not for fighting. You have missed my point completely. Any exercise is designed with a specific area of improvement in mind, this is just a general principle. Therefore to criticise an exercise based on a deficiency which is not within it's parameters to facilitate is a sign of ignorance, wilful or otherwise.
You fail at elucidation.

You said horse stance isn't for fighting. agreed. Then it's purpose in life is a stretch or body weight exercise. There are better ways to stretch and to work out the legs. So the only excuse to doing it would be 'tradition'. Which is fine but doesn't meet the "good for what it's meant for" that you claimed in the original post.

Or did you have another reason to do it?

Marrt
11/22/2006 9:23am,
1- wow a thousand push ups. now if you said he knocked some 6 foot 200 pound guy out with one punch it would matter. i can do more push ups than a lot of guys i know because im a skinny fucker and there isnt a whole lot of weight for me to lift. doesnt make me strong.



Nope, 10 000 in 3 hours and 20 minutes apparently, so a little under 1 push-up per second. As much as I'm sure the Chinese press is beyond reproach journalistically, let's see the video. All 3 hours and 20 mins of it.

And really, if he wasn't doing it on knuckles and clapping at the top of each one, it's not that big a deal.

sochin101
11/22/2006 4:19pm,
And yet this 6 year old did 10000
What does he bench?:new_Llol:

kylasdad
11/23/2006 12:04am,
The horse stance or the "Sitting Stance" is a goofy stance, but it has some merit, as described below:

1. If you must take a crap in the woods and you do not want to dangle your tallywhacker in the creeping weeds.

2. If you have rickets and want to camouflage that deformity whilst practicing the martial arts.

3. If you want to isolate and focus on your upper body during striking and blocking drills. By assuming a horse stance (which might even be an actual transition you will probably make if throwing something like a foot-to-foot sidekick), you largely eliminate the influence of your legs during the exercises. This is kind of like using a curl bench in weight lifting. In order to attain any real power, you have to learn how to use your hips in this stance. Your belt should actually swing from side to side as you throw techniques. Try assuming a horse stance and throwing all your formal punches and blocks with as much power as you can assimilate and I assure you it will be a good workout.

I understand the philosophy about realism, however, as anybody who is serious in the martial arts has those concerns and questions. It's silly to think I would ever stepped into the ring and threw a formal downblock (nor have I ever seen anyone do it even though every TKD school in the world teaches it), but I have been able to use the benefits of that technique in other motions.

Realistically, however, you can learn to fight just fine without ever learning the horse stance. Whether you'd be better off not learning it, I don't know. I think it has it's purpose for training.

Nevertheless, there is more to any system than just fighting. For example, there is quite a discipline to kata that deserves respect, which is where the horse stance is more prevalent. I mean, watch someone do a kata just right, with speed and power, and it's breathtaking (to me anyway). It's akin to a fine gymnast routine. I don't have any interest in gymnastics, but I can appreciate the dedication it takes to get that spinning, backwards, flippy thing they do worked out so that they can land on their feet.


cya

alex
11/23/2006 2:13am,
3. If you want to isolate and focus on your upper body during striking and blocking drills. By assuming a horse stance (which might even be an actual transition you will probably make if throwing something like a foot-to-foot sidekick), you largely eliminate the influence of your legs during the exercises. This is kind of like using a curl bench in weight lifting. In order to attain any real power, you have to learn how to use your hips in this stance. Your belt should actually swing from side to side as you throw techniques. Try assuming a horse stance and throwing all your formal punches and blocks with as much power as you can assimilate and I assure you it will be a good workout. im trying but i just cannot think of a good reason why you would want to actively teach yourself not to use foot movement when you punch. maybe its the boxing talking but that just seems like a new level of fucking idiocy.


I understand the philosophy about realism, however, as anybody who is serious in the martial arts has those concerns and questions. It's silly to think I would ever stepped into the ring and threw a formal downblock (nor have I ever seen anyone do it even though every TKD school in the world teaches it), but I have been able to use the benefits of that technique in other motions. its this kind of thing that should be throwing up red flags in your training. you shouldnt HAVE to justify a technique by using it for things other than its intended purpose. if you do then the technique is a failure. what the **** is the point of teaching people to use a downward block against a kick when it doesnt work- but you can use it for something else? why not use it for something else to begin with? is this a side effect of the people who taught you this technique having the fighting ability of an overweight squirrel?


Realistically, however, you can learn to fight just fine without ever learning the horse stance. Whether you'd be better off not learning it, I don't know. I think it has it's purpose for training. i dont and apparently neither do any of the coaches or professional fighters ive worked with. the only people ive seen use the horse stance in their training have ALL been purveyors of bullshido.


Nevertheless, there is more to any system than just fighting. yeah, mostly added on by white people who have watched karate kid a few too many times. fighting is about fighting, full stop, end of story, if people need to justify it to themselves by spouting on about budo and inner harmony etc maybe they should take up yoga instead (which in many cases would be far more beneficial)


For example, there is quite a discipline to kata that deserves respect, which is where the horse stance is more prevalent. I mean, watch someone do a kata just right, with speed and power, and it's breathtaking (to me anyway). It's akin to a fine gymnast routine. I don't have any interest in gymnastics, but I can appreciate the dedication it takes to get that spinning, backwards, flippy thing they do worked out so that they can land on their feet.


cya
thats nice but is completely irrelevant to fighting. the horse stance does have one use and thats as a physical discipline, if you are into that crap.

kylasdad
11/23/2006 2:48pm,
Alex,

It sounds like you're all about the ring and nothing else. That's cool. I love the ring too. If I had it to do all over, I think I would have trained for full contact as you did. I helped others train, but for some reason I never entered a full contact fight. I think I just knew that's not what I wanted to do with my life and figured if I couldn't do it right, I wouldn't do it at all. Once in awhile I entertain signing up for an amateur match, just so I can experience it. Of course, I better get busy training if I'm going to do it.

Oh, back to the horse stance... It just develops your techniques in a different way is all. I mean, I think the stance is stupid and goofy, but I do see a little merit in it. In my current school the instructor will often warm up the group for stretching by calling out a horse stance and then call off various combinations. It really teaches you new ways to attain power from techniques you thought you were good at already. I mean, it's like the difference between a dumbell bench press and a regular bench press. It's just a different way to do the same things. It might develop two or three strands of muscle that were getting neglected when you did it the other way. Tell me you don't ever work your footwork without throwing any techniques? This is the opposite.

But it's silly to argue about it. Everybody does things different.

Like I said, it sounds like you focus almost entirely on ring work and more power to you. I love fighting and when I was 23, it's all I cared about. Then I moved to a small town where they did a lot of kata and I started showing up when I got bored of working out solo in my garage or driving an hour to a fighting school. I rolled my eyes for awhile, but surprisingly, I really started to enjoy kata. It was challenging.

Did it improve my fighting? Oh, I doubt it. If so, minimally. Most of fighting is about timing, speed, footwork (movement), and effective combinations. But, when you get to be my age and got a disc fused in the neck due to too many head bangings (like I do), it's nice to be able to walk into any martial arts school in the world and keep up with the guys who've expanded their horizons a bit more. I mean, I won't be able to do ring fighting when I'm 59, but I will sure as hell be able to do kata.

cya

alex
11/23/2006 3:42pm,
i spent 2 years doing horse stances in kung fu, a few years before that doing them in goju ryu, and have never found a use for them in fighting. im halfway through a sportscience degree and haven't found a use for them in a sport and exercise setting either. now i am not saying that they dont do anything. what i am saying is there are better things you could spend your time doing which basically does make them useless.

and doing footwork drills without punching/punching drills without footwork is not the same thing. in one you are simply leaving something out. in the other you are actively training to punch with bad form. personally i dont do footwork drills without punching because it all has to come together and doing them in a seperated fashion like that just means more work later to combine them.

Dirty Rooster
11/26/2006 9:29am,
Great posts alex, especially about needing to use footwork when training punching.

Roidie McDouchebag
11/26/2006 9:35am,
how many of them do you think can do 100 push ups?

The day I can't do 100 pushups is the day I put a bullet in my dome.