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View Full Version : KI, Physics, Unliftable body



FictionPimp
10/23/2006 9:20am,
I found this over on aikiweb this morning. It's an interesting read on how physics can be used to explain the how the unliftable body works.

http://www.griffithaikido.com/aikidophysicskipower.html

Kintanon
10/23/2006 9:26am,
I can duplicate most of these silly things as magic tricks. I may try to put together a quick "Martial Magic" act for the Nov 5th Atl throwdown. Do the "Unbendable Arm" have 5 people try to push me against a wall, may even try the unliftable body... I also do a backbridge with someone sitting on my stomach and sit in a horse stance with someone sitting on my knee. All kinds of good tricks.

Kintanon

Mr. Jones
10/23/2006 9:28am,
This is blasphemy. It's all about extending your ki and becoming one with the universe.

FictionPimp
10/23/2006 10:25am,
I can duplicate most of these silly things as magic tricks. I may try to put together a quick "Martial Magic" act for the Nov 5th Atl throwdown. Do the "Unbendable Arm" have 5 people try to push me against a wall, may even try the unliftable body... I also do a backbridge with someone sitting on my stomach and sit in a horse stance with someone sitting on my knee. All kinds of good tricks.

Kintanon

That is what they are "magic tricks", but they are supose to teach principles of movement, or body position that allow you to defeat your attacker. Does it work? You got me, I just choke and punch people.

Epicurus
10/23/2006 10:41am,
That is what they are "magic tricks", but they are supose to teach principles of movement, or body position that allow you to defeat your attacker. Does it work? You got me, I just choke and punch people.

This stuff is not going to teach you anything about fighting. The body mechanics you need to beat people are going to come from more direct exercises, like punching, kicking, and armbarring people. This stuff was invented as a way of fooling/entertaining people and I really don't think it has much value as anything more.

eyebeams
10/23/2006 12:40pm,
This stuff is not going to teach you anything about fighting. The body mechanics you need to beat people are going to come from more direct exercises, like punching, kicking, and armbarring people. This stuff was invented as a way of fooling/entertaining people and I really don't think it has much value as anything more.

I disagree. Something like unbendable arm is actually a pretty good way of demonstrating how your arms should respond to pressure as a *preamble* to a technique. That means that UA isn't something you use, but the feel of it is a good way to look at relaxed pressure instead of going totally stiff. Since the tendency is to stiffen up when you do anything, having the correct feel known ahead of time is useful. Since it only takes 5 min to teach it doesn't significantly impact training time.

Epicurus
10/23/2006 12:49pm,
I disagree. Something like unbendable arm is actually a pretty good way of demonstrating how your arms should respond to pressure as a *preamble* to a technique. That means that UA isn't something you use, but the feel of it is a good way to look at relaxed pressure instead of going totally stiff. Since the tendency is to stiffen up when you do anything, having the correct feel known ahead of time is useful. Since it only takes 5 min to teach it doesn't significantly impact training time.

The UA may reveal some sort of body mechanics that are useful, but it seems like those body mechanics should just be integrated into the normal training. If you want to demonstrate it using the UA, fine, but to me that's like doing the "saw my assistant in half" trick as part of cabinet-making class. There's a stigma attached to the unbendable arm in that it has been used to dupe the gullible in the past - can we use such evil weapons for good aims? That's one for the philosophers.

kendamu
10/23/2006 1:32pm,
Personally, I see it that maybe the standalone UA technique can be taught on it's own since it takes a whole five minutes to teach but immediately after the person learning gets the feeling other more direct exercises should be done to learn how to apply it. So, rather than "They should only learn it directly!" or "They can apply it on their own after the inital exercise!" a nice mixture of the two would probably produce the best results.

FictionPimp
10/23/2006 2:19pm,
I actually use the UA a lot in grip fighting. I've been told I have a mean stiffarm. I'm not sure if practicing the UA in aikido did it, or if it just came about from knowing how to do the UA, and lot of randori. I'd put my money on the randori.

Tonuzaba
10/23/2006 3:40pm,
Oh, oh, and I seem to remember a Bruce Lee anecdote (dunno if it's true though) about a guy who was doing a demonstration of his unmovable body. Allegedly he challenged everyone in the room to try and push him over, which even the biggest guys couldn't. Then Bruce lost his nerve, came up to the guy and punched him in the face, straight the heck out of his fortress-stance. Heh. Yeah. Unliftable body my ass. Who the heck would ever want to lift you?
Tonuzaba

Mr. Jones
10/23/2006 4:23pm,
Heh. Yeah. Unliftable body my ass. Who the heck would ever want to lift you?
Tonuzaba

http://www.berndheinrich.de/fotos/TsuriKomiGoshi.jpg

Ueshiba would demonstrate **** like that to Judoka I'm not sure if people these days try to work stuff on Judoka today.

Upyu
10/23/2006 8:13pm,
I can duplicate most of these silly things as magic tricks. I may try to put together a quick "Martial Magic" act for the Nov 5th Atl throwdown. Do the "Unbendable Arm" have 5 people try to push me against a wall, may even try the unliftable body... I also do a backbridge with someone sitting on my stomach and sit in a horse stance with someone sitting on my knee. All kinds of good tricks.

Kintanon

I'd say the the unliftable body "trick" is pretty applicable to grappling. I have shootfighters over here complain how its hard to get a double leg on me even though it looks like im just "walking" around. If you know the actual skills behind the "trick" its definitely a valid demonstration. :)
That being said I'd say a majority of Aikidoh kids dont know the actual skills backing up the techniques, nor can they use them in a live environment.

Here's a more difficult version of the "unliftable body" trick:
Instead of doing the ghey ass "lets grab the guy by the arms" thing which anybody with half a brain could do, have them grab you around the waist or chest and then lift you. If you can keep them from lifting you, then see if you can redirect that force vector back into them and have the lifter fall down instead ;)

DdlR
10/23/2006 11:04pm,
These sorts of body tricks used to be presented as examples of "spiritualism" and "magnetism" in Vaudeville shows way back in the 1800s - http://www.illusiongenius.com/11-2002-03.html

I would say that the UA, UB, etc. are all valuable "tricks" in teaching fundamental body mechanics. One advantage is that they give you something to refer back to when you're teaching a wide range of more specific, combative techniques - "Remember that fun arm trick? OK, that's what we're doing here, except we're using the extension to weaken the other guy's hold", etc.

colonelpong2
10/23/2006 11:35pm,
On the subject of magic tricks, I saw a great TKD one a while back. It was at a demo they did at my university. Some idiots actually believed what they saw was real.

The TKD guys brought out "Large blocks of wood".
It turned out that these were actually extremely thin wooden 'boxes' filled with sawdust.
The TKD guys were fly kicking, back flip kicking these things etc etc. The idea was that when you kick one it breaks and sawdust flies everywhere, The audience were suposed to think that the incredible TKD power had caused these big, solid blocks to explode.
It was so obviously fake, but there were groups of idiots out there CHEERING and clapping in awe and wonder.

MartialArtN00b
10/24/2006 1:49pm,
Unbendable arm? like when you have to straighten your arm to defend the kimura when you cant grab your thigh?

FictionPimp
10/24/2006 2:37pm,
Unbendable arm? like when you have to straighten your arm to defend the kimura when you cant grab your thigh?


http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/CoolKi/Unbend.html


I use something similar to defend armlocks on noobs. It frustates them, but anyone of nominal skill will just change up to a different lock.