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Kokujin
10/15/2006 10:38pm,
Just the other day, while cleaning my garage I found a stack of old martial arts magazine from a european publication, who at the time, was one of the few that presented stories and photos about the "phenom" that was MMA, or NHB as it was called at the time by many( vale tudo por my fellow portuguese speaking posters).
The magazine always ran a story about the UFC or another MMA promotion, specially the brazilian ones, and trough it I read about guys like Marco Ruas, Pele Lons, Johil de Oliveira, etc. and all of those bloody matches back in Brazil, where the rules were, to say the least, loose.
One of those issues talked about a guy called Antônio Alves de Lacerda, aka "The Master of Death", a so called master of a old samurai warrior art called Yawara. The guy claimed he could defeat anyone in a hand to hand fight, by just using his techniques, which allowed him to turn his hands into knifes, his fingers in spikes, too deadly for anyone, able to cripple and maim, blablabla, etc. It seems the guy even challenged the Gracies, but acording to him, they "chicken out" out of sheer terror of his amazing fighting powers.
At the time began a ressurgence of brazilian imigration to my country and sometimes the state TV would broadcast a piece made by Globo TV (a brazilian channel)...well, by some sort of cosmic coincidence, they ran a piece on the guy where walks down the street, really bad ass like, talks trash about the other arts, bjj included, and then manhandles his prized student, a guy called EDson Carvalho. More on him later.
For ten minutes I saw the "Master of Death" doing muscle grabbings, nerves attacks, vital points attacks on his "helpless?" pupil, who tried to throw him, do a double or single leg, in such a compliant way that it even looked fake to me...a CMA student at the time. The Death Master even elbowed him in the spine during a single leg, I kid you not.
Ok, so what's the connection with bjj, besides the Gracie Challenge? Edson Carvalho, (remember the pupil?) was a bjj black belt, a judo black belt, a former brazilian judo champion and a champion in the BJJ Mundials in his weight category and in the absolute division fighting for Carlson Gracie.
Ok, so we have a judo and bjj champion, aparently with a lineage to Carlson Gracie who from one day to the other decides to forget everything he had learned, to follow a guy who claims to have learned some deadly art from a japanese guy who lived in Brazil. Something so deadly, that he wouldn't need to use judo or bjj skills anymore. Why roll around or throw someone on their head when you can pinch the nerves on their neck and paralize their body from the head down?
At the time I found funny the way EDSON started talking about how worthless his bjj and judo training had been, now that he had learned YAWARA, and then proceed to do a sloppy double leg or or a throw on the Death Master only to be struck in a nerve or a vital point. Bjj and judo are pale compared to the almighty Yawara. And the Edson was actually quite good as it seems.
Enter Igor Vovchanchyn and the WVC 7-World Vale Tudo Championship 7. Edson Carvalho, armed with his deadly Yawara, with his "sensei" at his corner gets the beating of his life while facing Igor, who strangely had Carlson Gracie at his corner. Maybe Carlson didn't take it so well having a prize student and fighter going bullshidoka. Who knows?
Edson takes a beating, gets knock down and I guess, ends a TWELVE year relationship with his master, the DEATH MASTER, goes back to judo and bjj and I suppose, is trying to forget the all thing. I hope. Last time I checked he had schools in New Jersey and was teaching judo and bjj. The whole YAWARA, Death Touch thing is never mentioned in the english sites or profiles, only the brazilians, and I suppose he's no longer a student of Antonio Lacerda or is he teaching Yawara as a secret art for bjj black belts. I sincerely hope he's over that ****.

And what about the Death Master?

The last info I got about the guy was that he showcased his skills to both the us military and police forces and got a job training their forces in defense techniques and whatever they use to kill people. So it seems, the bullshido goes on.

Ok, I had to use my search fu skills to track info for this thread, and there are a couple of ends that don't match. But on the overall, the story is pretty much legit, because I saw the tv piece and saw the fight. Sorry for the big thread :5bomb:

chaosexmachina
10/16/2006 1:34am,
Cool story, thanks dude. Any more info on this Yawara stuff?

roly
10/16/2006 1:39am,
its not 2 different people with the same name?

Virus
10/16/2006 1:54am,
Great story. Thanks for digging that up.

Backdraft
10/16/2006 6:28am,
Well, there is a man in the Bujinkan (Called Nagato) who used to be a kickboxer/judoka in his younger days. Come to think of it, Hatsumi himself was a pretty hardcore judo player in his younger days, I think.
It seems in every single bullshido place there's always a guy who used to do stuff like Judo, Boxing, Muay Thaï, and suddenly decided that what he trained was'nt deadly enough, subsequently changing to crap like Bujinkan or Aikido...

Doctor X
10/16/2006 6:37am,
Judo is mundane. People want "magical" things like the "Touch . . . of DEATH!" They want "karate tricks"--two fingers to the throat 4 t3h w1n!!11!!--remember that "one-punch-kill!"

Judo? That is big people throwing you to the ground--OUCH!! What is so "magical" about that? Where are all the "Silent Warrior" Judo books? Where are the Judo movies . . . other than that hard-to-find Kurosawa film?

Boxing? That is getting hit! OUCH!! No secret philosophy? MT? That is getting hit! OUCH!! Traditional Karate? That is getting hit!

If you want to sell this stuff, you need to be "new"--but have "ancient secrets"--and avoid the OUCH!

--J.D.

LolodesBois
10/16/2006 6:39am,
Well, there is a man in the Bujinkan (Called Nagato) who used to be a kickboxer/judoka in his younger days. Come to think of it, Hatsumi himself was a pretty hardcore judo player in his younger days, I think.
It seems in every single bullshido place there's always a guy who used to do stuff like Judo, Boxing, Muay Thaï, and suddenly decided that what he trained was'nt deadly enough, subsequently changing to crap like Bujinkan or Aikido...

Funny enough these people switch when said art was practice hardcore.

All the high ranked judo people I know that followed Aikido was at a time when aikido was still called aiki-budo and Ueshiba's dojo was called the dojo of hell...

now aiki-fruities like to take those people as example that aikido must be 'TH3 D3ADLY' since they practiced it....

Backdraft
10/16/2006 7:00am,
Kind of like Hatsumi, I've heard in the late 60's early 70's, Bujinkan was legit. Somebody who did BBT longer then me could maybe comment on that. Anyhow, we all know Bujinkan is a joke nowadays. So is Aikido. So we have at least two cases of allegedly "hardcore" styles/dojos/senseis that for an unknown reason pussified their art to a degree unforeseen up to this point.
Question is, what went wrong? Did they want to avoid the OUCH and make more money?

Asriel
10/16/2006 7:15am,
I think you've hit the nail on the head there Backdraft. They saw $$$ signs and pussified their art so that more people would want to take it up. Getting hit while training Martial Arts isn't something that your once a week joe thinks is acceptable.

Doctor X
10/16/2006 7:21am,
Not to apologize for Ueshiba and his Bastard Child, but was $$$ his motivation in particular? Any evidence of that? I always thought he just started to believe in his public relations as his dotage set in.

--J.D.

Backdraft
10/16/2006 7:26am,
In Ueshibas case, I recall multiple accusations of senility directed towards him.
Considering the state of modern day Aikido, it's sadly and entirely plausible.
Regarding Hatsumi however, I think it was greed.

Edit: The refusal to accept getting hit is a part of martial arts training should logically result in not taking up martial arts training, should'nt it? So why do folks even bother? Unexpressed desires of obtaining excellence without dedication and sacrifice? Some sort of twisted "Karate Kid" fantasy?
Ya, LARPers...

LolodesBois
10/16/2006 7:52am,
I blame Hollywood :-) !

Of course people want to be deadly without the OUCH and the blood and sweat, just like they want to be fit without working-out it's a nautral tendancy to want everything for nothing.

For Ueshiba I can't say it was for money after all everything indicates that his sun is more responsible for the pussifying of aikido than he is.

I think we should also keep in mind that 'masters' are on their own path, sure they will teach to others and guide them a bit but they have always kept working on their own path so depending on when you picked-up things from them your view on what IS the art is biased.

What I mean is that for Aikido the one that did aikido before the 1940's came away with a bad-ass art as Ueshiba was in his prime and also practicing like that, the one that followed him after WWII followed a guy who was using his MA as a path to spiritual perfection hence the difference.

Probably the same with Hatsumi although in his case I think that their is definetly deliberate disinformation (NINJA style ;-) ) to some students, probably for money but maybe also just for laugh and also the old Japanese don't teach the Gajin the R3AL stuf.

Kokujin
10/16/2006 8:39am,
What suprises me bout this story and other just like that, is how people are willing to change from a "battle tested" martial art or fight sport to a esoteric, more deadly then Ebola type of thing. Maybe it comes to show that all of this is a matter of ego and alpha male mentality somehow...ok, I choke people around, slam their heads on the mat like pinatas, but somehow that's not quite enough ownage, I have to liquify their organs, get his wifes and eat their cattle?

I'm going to try and find some more on this story, running it trough my bjj instructor and other bjj teachers I know. It's unbelievable the amount of dirt or info you get when you get to talk about someone else who they think is a bullshidoka.

PS-I'm happy you found it a cool story.:glasses6:

plasma
10/16/2006 11:09am,
Yawara is Jujutsu. Its the same Kanji just an alternate reading of them. Yawara is the older way to say Jujutsu.

Backdraft
10/16/2006 12:10pm,
Okay, thanks for the info. Obviously, it was pretty horrendous Jujutsu. You think the alternate reading is an attempt at gaining esoterical value?

kendamu
10/16/2006 1:01pm,
Kind of like Hatsumi, I've heard in the late 60's early 70's, Bujinkan was legit. Somebody who did BBT longer then me could maybe comment on that. Anyhow, we all know Bujinkan is a joke nowadays. So is Aikido. So we have at least two cases of allegedly "hardcore" styles/dojos/senseis that for an unknown reason pussified their art to a degree unforeseen up to this point.
Question is, what went wrong? Did they want to avoid the OUCH and make more money?

From what I've experienced and heard about from friends when it comes to Bujinkan, smaller groups with people who have experience in other arts (that had contact) tends to lead to more "hardcore" training. Is there any instance in Aikido where this is true that could easily be pointed out?