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Black 6
10/13/2006 7:53pm,
This was another thing that I asked in a different tread, but decided to post it here, in a more open and topic specific method.

What defines BJJ and GJJ? What I'm making reference to is the fact that for most arts, there is something that seperates it specifically from another ryu of similar methods, whether it be techniques or philosophy, etc. I someone said they were teaching GJJ, is there a specific curriculum, because from what I've seen, peopel just absorb whatever they find and say it's in the art.

Also, as long s we're here, how does someone say that they train in an MMA? Wouldn't it either be a) one art which has both striking and grappling, which would then just be called "X" b) two arts, one that encompasses standinf, and then a grappling art that is also trained in?

Doctor X
10/13/2006 7:57pm,
The patches?




:5slick:

Okay . . . okay . . . I am interested in the answer as well. . . .

--J.D.

MacWombat
10/13/2006 8:55pm,
As an introduction to the answer:
Not to be too cliché, but everybody's jiujitsu is different. Every teacher teaches some moves with subtle variations from the next [teacher]. Even the jiujitsu taught among the Gracies is different (so I've been told): I.E. Relson Gracie's jiujitsu is different than Royce's is different than Rorion's is different than Rickson's. And then after a while you start to create your own jiujitsu, what works for you and your body.


Thus, a BJJ is going to teach different things than a GJJ school by default. Is there a significant difference? I don't know, I'm a noob, but I doubt it. I've been looking at it as though GJJ is the designer form of BJJ: not necessarily better, but more expensive (and somewhat more likely to find a good school). But what the **** do I know? Hopefully somebody much better than me will answer this question much better than I.

NSLightsOut
10/13/2006 9:10pm,
Copyright laws - Rorion Gracie copyrighted the term 'Gracie Jiu Jitsu' in the early nineties, leading to a number of lawsuits and the adoption of the more generic term of BJJ as a descriptor of the art. Hence, the difference between 'GJJ' and 'BJJ' is the same as the difference as going to different schools teaching the same art - Merely a different approach to teaching and rolling

Sofa-King What
10/13/2006 9:29pm,
I really doubt this, but hope to see some replies to this post. I am new to jiu-jitsu from the latin americas myself, but have heard theories on this topic, and hope to hear different slants on this....

From what I have heard, one thing was that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was copyrighted by the Helio clan, and Gracie Barra hired an attorney to dispute this....saying that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was the same as Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu and interchangeable terminology.
Anyone know any details about this? Is this false?

This seems like a good discussion, but one thing I fear is that it might spawn clan/lineage-nut-riding, and turn into a political partisan flame war.


Edit-the Doubt was not to previous post but to seeing a lot of replies to this post. The previous post was not there when I started writing this.

1bad65
10/13/2006 9:41pm,
NS is correct. Rorion trademarked 'Gracie Jiu-Jitsu'. I read somewhere he did so that as long as he had control of the name it would never get diluted, unlike alot of other MAs. Notice how all the school that 'crapple' call it something besides GJJ.

Blue Negation
10/13/2006 9:50pm,
I did a bit of research on BJJ and discussed the history of the art with other martial artists on the internet and discovered that there was some sort of martial arts civil war in South America between some guy named Helio and two other guys named Sperry and Machado. Apparently Helio taught the r34l JJ, which was taught to him by Count Dracula, not the real Dracula but some Japanese guy who was exiled from his homeland for dishonoring the emperor. Apparently, Helio saved him from malaria and Montezuma’s revenge in the Brazilian rainforest on the face of Machupichu. In exchange for saving his life, the Count agreed to teach Helio his fighting style but he made Helio swear a blood oath that he would only use the deadly fighting style for the purposes of good not evil.

Helio then set out to purify martial arts in first South America, then the world. He organized underground no holds barred death matches to fight the various so-called masters of other MA styles found in the rainforests and small coastal hamlets of South America. Helio’s prowess and skill in the style he dubbed Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, as opposed to the more plebian Japanese jujitsu, spread across the land. Helio successfully converted the Capoeira, Garrote Larense, Esgrima Criolla, Tayando, and other “masters” of the local heathen bastard arts to the light of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Helio was a badass crusader like in medieval times, fucking mint!!!!!

Well, anyway, apparently Sperry and Machado, Helio’s prior general’s, started to make money by entering their fighters into commercialized “no-holds-barred” matches and venues. Helio, being a martial arts socialist, clearly saw that Sperry and Machado were attempting to make a profit off of the pure art of Brazilian Jiu-Jistu; the evil of pure unabashed capitalism. In a “battle of the century” Helio sent his second captain, Royce Gracie, to battle the capitalist forces of evil at UFC 1. The result was a clear win for the forces of good and a truce between the feuding sides with a treaty signed in Rio de Janeiro, Brasil, in 1993. The treaty split Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu into two sides, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, the side of evil, and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, the side of good.

...

There's a GJJ place 30 min away from where I train, and people come from there to train with us and vice versa all the time. I have a difficult time distinguishing any difference.

Lu Tze
10/13/2006 9:59pm,
NS is correct. Rorion trademarked 'Gracie Jiu-Jitsu'. I read somewhere he did so that as long as he had control of the name it would never get diluted, unlike alot of other MAs. Notice how all the school that 'crapple' call it something besides GJJ.You saying the Machados crapple? Or any of the other numerous jujutsu teachers who don't happen to be sucking Rorion's cock right now?

1bad65
10/13/2006 10:03pm,
Ah, no. I did not say all non-GJJ is crappling. I said I have never seen crappling called GJJ. I happen to train at a Renzo affiliate btw.

Blue Negation
10/13/2006 10:04pm,
No, he's noting how "We teach BJJ combined with pressure point striking and wing chun trapping!!!" seefoos can't call their crappling mix gracie jiu-jitsu due to Rorion's copyright.

Wolf
10/13/2006 10:11pm,
Ah, no. I did not say all non-GJJ is crappling. I said I have never seen crappling called GJJ. I happen to train at a Renzo affiliate btw.

I thought GJJ actually did teach what we might call crappling for a while? I thought I remembered reading, on here probably, that they didn't teach all their stuff the proper way so that their fighters would have a leg up on anyone else they trained. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though. I could just be perpetuating a rumor I heard.

Sofa-King What
10/13/2006 10:11pm,
Good Stuff.(almost)
Bump.
TY

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sofa
AKA Gafanhoto

1bad65
10/13/2006 10:14pm,
EXACTLY, Blue. You see it called crap like submission grappling, ground fighting, grappling class, etc. Never GJJ. Not that everyone who uses these titles is bullshido, just that if you see GJJ you know Rorion allows that school/instructor to teach his style. If you were around in the mid-90s, you noticed alot of TMA schools suddenly teaching ground work. Wonder why??? Rorion did not want his family's name associated with clowns like that, hence the TM.

Lu Tze
10/13/2006 10:16pm,
Right I got ya, wires crossed a little.

They can still say "Seafood incorporates BJJ groundfighting* to make his dim mak invincible!" though, and since GJJ and BJJ mean essentially the same thing, what's the difference?

*He went to one seminar**

**It was a wing chun anti grappling seminar in which someone LARPed BJJ, this of course means he knows everything you need to know about BJJ.

1bad65
10/13/2006 10:21pm,
OK. cool. It's actually smart of him if you ask me. I have only ever taken boxing and BJJ. But I could open a TKD, Aikido, Karate, whatever school tomorrow if I wanted. I could not open a GJJ school without Rorion's approval though.

Doctor X
10/13/2006 10:49pm,
Indeed. He takes the benefit and responsibility for his "brand-name." In other countries, like Okinawa, an organization can control a karate style, for example. Here in America--**** YEAH!--there is no "law" about what is a legitimate style or not.

Now, if Rorion gets greedly and lets in the Joe McCrapplers, he will be responsible for the dilution of GJJ. Otherwise, he has the respect of maintaining quality such that when people discuss GJJ they discuss--at least HERE--the merits of GJJ and the teacher rather than caution you about having to find "t3h r34l GJJ."

Smart move on Rorion's part, not just financially. I do not really blame him for the financial control either--it his HIS--and Helio [PBUH--ED.] and his brothers' NAME. It is not like he trademarked "JJ" or even "BJJ."

--J.D.