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TehStr33t
10/09/2006 1:16pm,
http://www.wilsonkarate.com/seisan.html



While every kata can have many interpretation depending on what you are looking for in it, I have found Seisan to be an anti-grappling kata. The grappler cannot be successful unless they can initiate the clinch. Once they clinch they are confident that they can take you down and finish you on the ground.
Ground fighting is a different story and a different article. What I would like to focus on now is how Seisan prevents the clinch. Having a small grappling background, I have always worked on takedowns and ground fighting. The success of Brazilian Jujitsu only emphasized that interest. It also began my study of how those guys make it to the clinch and how can it be stopped.
Before I begin, I would like to state that nothing is 100% successful, so there is still an element of timing etc. in all of these that remains your personal responsibility.
The manner of takedown from the front becomes irrelevant if they cannot clinch. Therefore we must prevent the clinch. From the front there are four level at which the aggressor can close in on you: High, middle, low and very low. We break out the moves of Seisan that deal with each of these levels.
HIGH: The aggressor is moving in and going to perhaps pin your arms to your side in a bear hug like manoeuvre, and use a leg hook to trip you over.

The three consecutive heel palm strikes are excellent to work against this clinch. They sweep up just in case the aggressor decides to drop low he will still run into the strike as it rises. They continue one after another driving the aggressor back away from you, much like a JKD straight blast.
The tradition double finger jab (heel palm) that follows the three heel palms is another good quick response to a grab. It can be done even when your hands are caught down at your side. Again, the strike sweeps up in a manner that would intercept the aggressor should he change tactics and go for a lower takedown.
If the aggressor does catch you by surprise and get in too close for these two techniques, then the forward crane strike is the next technique. Here I interpret the circle block that follows these strikes differently. The crane strike to the groin should, at minimum, force the aggressor to pull their hips back away from the strike (if they don't -- bonus). This creates a small space between you and them. Swing the circle block up through that space not as a block but as a strike up under the jaw of the aggressor.
One of the ways to prevent the aggressor from pulling in close to you after they close is to place your hands on their hips and your elbows on your hip, thus bracing them away from you. This position can be gotten into with the double finger strike to the groin area. Swinging them to one side can off balance them for the elbow strike that follows in the kata.
For the charging aggressor, meet them with the Seisan elbow strike in the leaning stance. This should stop the rush and fold them over to allow for the follow up strikes that follow this move right in the kata.MIDDLE: This is where they generally wrap their arms around your waist and use a leg hook to trip you over, or a body drop.
Middle take downs are usually initiated when the defender throws a punch. Most often the palm is facing down and it is directed at the aggressor's head. Scenario: the aggressor charges in. The defender throws the punch at what appears to be an open target -- the head. Problem, the punch is thrown to where a striker would come to strike, the grappler drops under the strike and keeps coming in -- distance closed, the clinch is on.

The solution is to throw a lead hand that is quickly followed by a strike with the palm facing up. This strike comes upwards and catches the grappler as they drop down. Ever wonder why Seisan had so many nukite strikes in it? These are the very strikes required to stop that middle level clinch. You can use a fist as opposed to straight fingers.
For the grappler that is charging in for the middle level clinch (too low for the elbow strike) step off to the side misdirecting them with a circle block and hammer fist them to the back of the head at the base of the skull as they pass.LOW: This the famous double or single leg takedown. Which by the way works fantastic against a person standing in Sanchin "if" they get in properly.
Now, Seisan has the defense that is shown in most bunkai, but I modify that somewhat. First of all, grapplers expect that knee to be brought up, so sweeping them down into the rising knee tends only to give them the leg for the takedown. I do not recommend it.

Do not use the hand to sweep the aggressor into the knee. The hand drives across to move the head slightly aside which takes the aggressor's back and shoulder muscles out of the takedown making them MUCH weaker. This will do well as long as you also move to off angle the original attack. Quickly follow with a shoken the side of the neck.
Here is where I do something different. I use the drop into a Uechi Stance (modified horse stance) and the double heel palm strike from Konchin or Sanseirui. I have the leg that is opposite the direction of the attack go back into the stance for a brace. I bring one hand across (like in Seisan) but I have the fingers pointing down. The other hand drives a heel palm strike directly to the top of the head. (Be very careful with this strike it can really shock the brain and damage the neck.) Then, back to Seisan as I step forward as I rotate my hands up and forward (and therefore rotate the aggressor's head) -- basically the move right before the jump back. From here finish at your leisure.VERY LOW: This is where the aggressor dives for your ankle to hook your heel and drive you over with their shoulder.
Simple, do the jump back. This takes you up and out of their grasp. It also leaves them sprawled out on the ground in front of you. Then JUMP BACK WITH A GOOD SOLID LANDING RIGHT ON THEM.

pauli
10/09/2006 1:25pm,
LOW: This the famous double or single leg takedown. Which by the way works fantastic against a person standing in Sanchin "if" they get in [email protected][email protected]

putting aside the general idiocy of the rest of it, what kind of fucking inbred even considers sanchin as a fighting stance?

Backdraft
10/09/2006 1:47pm,
Ew, Krotty.
What does Sanchin look like?

TehStr33t
10/09/2006 1:54pm,
Wing chunners have nothing on the anti-grappling powers of teh karate sanchin

datdamnmachine
10/09/2006 1:57pm,
Once again, we have the "Anti-Grapple". In _ing _un, it's chain punching to prevent the takedown and now in karate it's heel palm strikes. Wow, I should be learning chain puches and heel palms instead of overhooks/underhooks, sprawls, lowering my base, etc.

twKoxinga
10/09/2006 2:02pm,
"Having a small grappling background"
I like how hes trying to sound knowledgable and humble at the same time, when he is actually neither.

daGorilla
10/09/2006 2:07pm,
Once again, we have the "Anti-Grapple". In _ing _un, it's chain punching to prevent the takedown and now in karate it's heel palm strikes. Wow, I should be learning chain puches and heel palms instead of overhooks/underhooks, sprawls, lowering my base, etc.

I know an "anti-grappling" kata.

It's the one where I fall over and shake like I'm having a seizure, then I foam at the mouth and crap myself.

Most people don't want to grapple you then. And I can practice it without a partner.

-dagorilla

GoldenJonas
10/09/2006 2:11pm,
VERY LOW: This is where the aggressor dives for your ankle to hook your heel and drive you over with their shoulder.
Simple, do the jump back. This takes you up and out of their grasp. It also leaves them sprawled out on the ground in front of you. Then JUMP BACK WITH A GOOD SOLID LANDING RIGHT ON THEM.

RAWWWWRRRRRRRR!!!! CRAPPLER STOMP ON GRAPPLER!!!! RAWWWWWWRRRRR!!!!!!

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-2/1153051/SMASH.gif

datdamnmachine
10/09/2006 2:13pm,
"Having a small grappling background"
I like how hes trying to sound knowledgable and humble at the same time, when he is actually neither.

Yeah, it's like all the people who are "experienced" in grappling arts but they don't hold any rank or won't tell you how long this experience is. Usually they hold no rank or very low rank(if the art uses rankings that is) and/or they've only done it for a few weeks, maybe a few months. I don't know too many martial artists out there with a years+ worth of grappling experience who would trivialize defending a takedown with these methods. I'm going to guess a couple of days/weeks crappling with some other "krotty" friends and coming up with this crap.

twKoxinga
10/09/2006 4:07pm,
many are too manly (insecure with their sexuality) to be grappling other men.

Epicurus
10/09/2006 4:14pm,
I love this stuff. Pretty much all the anti-grappling stuff I see goes like this:

"The grappler will lower their head and try to grapple you. Hit them ten times with punches to the face and then stomp on them when they fall over. This will work every time if done correctly."

black mariah
10/09/2006 4:44pm,
Fucking hell...

Simplest anti-grapple?

A FUCKING BJJ CLASS. Instantly nullifies all but the best grapple.

*grumble*

katana
10/09/2006 5:39pm,
Ew, Krotty.
What does Sanchin look like?

Sanchin is a kata that is frequently done as a breathing/power exercise. I primarily saw it in the Goju-Ryu system when I practiced another Okinawan style Shorin-Ryu. I've also seen Uechi Ryu people do it.

The footwork uses a stance with the toes pointed in markedly and your body is upright. The step is a crescent type sweep on the ground with your foot as you move. Theoretically the stance can be used to absorb knee kicks to the legs because your knee is facing inward due to your foot position but I don't think it's very practical. The practitioner doing Sanchin stays very tense and some instructors will come up and hit the person during the kata to test that they are doing it properly. I trained with one Goju-ryu person who would smack the heck out of his students when doing this kata for instance.

This website had people doing both Seisan and Sanchin:

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/videos/u_kata.html

Needless to say this person is reading into the kata too much. I've never felt that katas have any deep-rooted secret techniques. Katas are just a condensed way to get a student to memorize a large number of techniques quickly for later practice. Reading anything more into them is an exercise in futility.

EDIT: Looks like he has videos of himself doing these katas too:

http://www.wilsonkarate.com/vids.html

Hannibal
10/09/2006 7:41pm,
Not this anti-grappling **** again. This has been disproven many times before. The only idiots who pedel this are those with no or very little grappling experiance.

Look, there are "certain" techniques within kata which can be useful in a self defense situation is someone grabs you. But there is no secret within kata which allows you to beat a grappler. No amout of punching and kicking thin air will allow you to beat a Wrestler or Judo/BJJ player. No friggin way. Yeah, try that palm strike combo on a wrestler when he goes for a leg shoot. You'll be on the floor in no time flat.

Karate is not a grappling art and does not pretend to be. Those that think they have uncovered some way to defeat grapplers through kata don't know what they are talking about. To be truthful, they should stop living in fantasy land. They should visit a good wrestling or Judo club and spend time with serious grapplers. Then I think they will see that their kata training will not be much help and more time should be spent sparring.

I get so pissed off whenever I hear about this. WHat they are teaching students is misleading. The instructors should be experianced enough to know better.

colonelpong2
10/09/2006 7:54pm,
Ew, Krotty.
What does Sanchin look like?

Picture a malformed bird with chronic bad knees, serious tension issues and then imagine its trying to turn in two directins at once. Then you've got sanchin-dachi

JohnnyS
10/09/2006 8:07pm,
It's pretty obvious that you guys have not put in the time and effort to perfect seisan and sanchin kata. Until you do, then you're speaking out of your asses.