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Sarenace
9/26/2006 5:56am,
I have been training in BJJ for almost a year now, and have only earnt 2 stripes on my white belt. I initially started training for fitness; I felt that I would have a much better incentive to exercise hard if someone was attempting to beat the **** out of me.
I was recently in the position of being pushed off a public resource that was at that time rightfully mine. Despite being in the right, I rather submissively allowed myself to be bullied.
My point is this- I'm the kind of guy for whom all the training in the world will not help in the face of an aggressive person. It seems that in my case, confidence in my ability to handle myself goes as far as the training mat and no further. Isnt this an inherent weakness in all martial arts?
Oh. it's perfectly acceptable for longtime mebers to come in and cry "Bullshido!" as I've observed on other threads, but it occurs to me that if those people are half as good a fighter as they say they are, they can have that luxury over an unco-ordinated nerd like me. It's very easy for them to say that, and it still doesn't help me.
It seems that the very people who most need help in learning to defend themselves (submissive guys like me) are the ones who are least able to benefit from such training.

MrMcFu
9/26/2006 5:59am,
Your personality is something a martial art won't change. That has to come from you. See a psychologist.

alex
9/26/2006 6:26am,
yeah pretty much, while doing MA might make you more confident or whatever the effects on your psyche arent gonna be significant. if youve been a doormat your whole life rolling on the ground with guys a few times a week wont change that.

Teh El Macho
9/26/2006 9:13am,
Sarenace, I have a slight different take on this. I do agree that if you lack confidence, martial arts training may not necessarily change that. However, sometimes just because you feel it's your right to fight back, that doesn't necessarily means you should do so.

I keep repeating this anecdote that occured to me not long ago at the gym. I was using two squat racks at the same time as I was doing alternate squats and clean/jerks. Despite the fact that there were 6 other unused racks, this old man was peeved that I was using two at the same time. He insulted me, named my mother, virtually spat on my face, his nose was very much on my face, puffed chest and even threw what I consider a racial remark.

This was done in front of several witnesses, and I could have by all rights fought back. I had everything in my favor (physical attributes and witnesses in a court of law) in case things escalated to a physical altercation. But I chose not to.

He called me gay. I said thank you. He said my mother was a whore. I said thank you, so and so on. All of the sudden, the old man realized he was making a fool out of himself, and that he was not going to get me all worked up so easely so he moved away. Even then, I gave him one of the racks and moved my work out somewhere else.

If someone verbally assaults a friend or relative, then it's different. But if it's me, **** it. That kind of **** is WAAAY TO BENEAT YOU AND I TO LET IT AFFECT US.

You have to learn to chose your battles. You don't build confidence by accepting challenges, but by ignoring them because they are **** too worthless for your attention.

They want to take your place. Tell them, "**** it, have it if it makes you feel happy and complete and mucho macho. Whatever rocks your boat". I can assure you that such an act most of the time disarms the bullies as they unexpectedly get painted in front of everybody as the mindless idiots they are.

A bully expects you to either fight (and give an "excuse" to strike), or to walk away bullied with your tail under your legs. Don't give him either and he won't know what the **** to do.

When you walk away not because you are bullied or scared but because they are nothing but little pieces of **** staining your shoes, that's when your confidence builds up.

Next time, don't walk away bullied. Walk away confident and laughing at them for being so ridiculously beneat you. A bully wants attention and validation. Don't fall for it. Don't give it to him.

Learn how to chose your fights and be confident about it. Fight only when your safety (or someone you care) is in danger and you have no other choice but to fight back. In all other cases, just walk away while mentally saying "**** it!".

Don't let that worthtless **** get under your skin.

Goju - Joe
9/26/2006 9:47am,
OOhh OOH here's my story.

I parked somewhere down town andb this guy comes up and starts spweing all this racist **** at me. I respond and start yelling back, I am not going to back down brrr big old tough me if he tries anything I'll kick his ass. The guy then turns around and walks away. So I leave all angry and such. I then realize the guy knows where my car is and could vandalize it so I go back and sure enough there he is yelling the excat same **** to the air.

It turns out he's crazy, a former university student who went off the deep end on coke and other drugs and is literally out of his mind.

He wasn't yelling at me or anyone in the real world. I felt like an idiot for even getting angry. Imaginme if I got in a fight with someone who is obviously mentally deficient. I would have felt like ****. My rule then has pretty much been unless someone initiates physical contact ignore them.

GoldenJonas
9/26/2006 1:45pm,
I agree with Goju and Mr. Macho. Its very sound advise. Ignoring an asshole is NOT "being submissive", its actually a much better way to live your life IMHO. Don't sweat the small stuff.

I have a friend that pretty much flips the **** out whenever someone cuts him off in traffic. He goes fucking ballistic and then bitches about it for the next 20 miles. What purpose does it serve...answer - nothing. The examples provided are every day confrontations that usually do not end up in a physical fight. Further, these confrontations are always, ALWAYS, a result of chest puffing and one alpha ego trying to appear dominant over another. Shrugging, smiling, and walking away from these idiot face-offs are the only way to go. Ask yourself, what is this confrontation over? if the answer is because he/she wants my bus seat, my parking spot, my spot in line at the ATM, he/she bumped into me at the mall, he/she flipped me off, etc, etc. Then there is absolutely no purpose for risking a physical altercation by puffing up back...walk away and enjoy the rest of your day. The world is full of assholes, we just do our best to avoid them.

Now, if your submissive behavior is linked to or causing you some kind of psychosis, like you internalize every confrontation with every asshole, you become withdrawn, you blame yourself, you are sometimes fearful of going outside or into crowds or crowded events, you're depressed or anxious...if it is this type of problem, you need to see a doctor to help your through this.

alex
9/26/2006 3:35pm,
i woulda smashed that retard

both times :p

Zing!
9/26/2006 6:21pm,
There are some times in life when you have to look the other guy in the eye and say "**** you."

But those times are very few and far between. To echo the previous posts, let the baby have his bottle. There's a difference between being submissive and not wasting time. In most confrontations, it's best to just walk away.

Story time: A friend of mine doesn't let **** slide. He was walking away from a diner one night and some stranger called him a ****** for the stylish clothes he was wearing. My friend walked up to the dude to return the insult and got cut. The attacker was running away while my friend was bleeding from his neck.

Don't worry, he's fine now.

That was an extreme; you probably won't get cut. But my point is that when you confront people in a "chest puffing" contest, you're oftentimes risking violence and you never know what can happen. There are some times when the stakes are worth violence and its inherent risks. But for the most part, they're not. My friend didn't need to take that risk.

Remember, I'm not saying that you should let people walk all over you. Don't do that. Just make sure that what you're about to argue over is worth it.

Sarenace
9/27/2006 6:48am,
Quite a few replies to my initial post it seems. Just got back from training and thought I'd check this thread. Given some of the comments, I should probably go into the event itself in more detail.

It actually occurred quite some time ago, when I took my now ex-girlfriend out to a nature reserve for a BBQ (no she didn't break up with me because of this incident, in case you're wondering). The reserve in question had BBQ's supplied to the public for free. We took the next BBQ that became available. Some guy that arrived later came up and asked us if he could use the BBQ along with us. My ex explained that there wouldn't be any room, and that she wouldn't eat anything that had been cooked alongside red meat (he was cooking sausages). He then proceeded to put his food on the BBQ anyway, saying "I asked you nicely, you should've shared"- and I didnt say a word. My ex walked off, but not before sarcastically thanking me for my support- and she was right.

I am personally of the opinion it was an unacceptable display of submissiveness on my part. Had I tried to talk him out of it, it may not have necessarily led to violence, however, we'll never know, because I didn't even get to the point where words were exchanged. Have you ever heard the saying "all that is required for evil to win in this world is for enough good men to do nothing"? This guy will probably keep behaving like this because there are too many people like me who do nothing.

Consider also that it wasn't just me that he was offending, it was also my ex- who does not eat red meat or anything that has been cooked with it on idealogical grounds. I know this isn't going to go down well with the women on this forum, who are probably amongst the most liberated I've ever encountered, but I am one of those old fashioned guys that believe if you cant support your woman you don't deserve her. Yes I know, I'm a neanderthal.

Moreover, what is the point of doing BJJ if you're not prepared to go that far? Of course I wanted to talk him down. Of course I didn't want to have to fight over something so stupid as a BBQ. But the fact is, we do this kind of training precisely so that we will not be intimidated by another person threatening to escalate such a situation to violence- so that we will be confident enough to reason with the other person.

alex
9/27/2006 7:02am,
i dont know why some people have such a problem telling people to **** off. most people like that guy will push but if you turn around and say "look just **** OFF ok" theyll leave. most people don't wander around looking for a fight. maybe he picked you because you didnt look like you would fight back about it, you can tell a lot about someone by body language. even if you try simply appearing more confident- walk around with your chin up, shoulders back, long strides but not in a ministry of silly walks way- might help. my mum was a psych nurse for 20+ years, and talked to a few serial killers in that time- they all said the same thing, they chose their victims by the way they walked.

MrMcFu
9/27/2006 7:47am,
It's about saving face for your ex. By backing off, you showed her what her worth is to you. Not that that is a bad thing in and of itself.

Teh El Macho
9/27/2006 7:47am,
Quite a few replies to my initial post it seems. Just got back from training and thought I'd check this thread. Given some of the comments, I should probably go into the event itself in more detail.

It actually occurred quite some time ago, when I took my now ex-girlfriend out to a nature reserve for a BBQ (no she didn't break up with me because of this incident, in case you're wondering). The reserve in question had BBQ's supplied to the public for free. We took the next BBQ that became available. Some guy that arrived later came up and asked us if he could use the BBQ along with us. My ex explained that there wouldn't be any room, and that she wouldn't eat anything that had been cooked alongside red meat (he was cooking sausages). He then proceeded to put his food on the BBQ anyway, saying "I asked you nicely, you should've shared"- and I didnt say a word. My ex walked off, but not before sarcastically thanking me for my support- and she was right.

I am personally of the opinion it was an unacceptable display of submissiveness on my part. Had I tried to talk him out of it, it may not have necessarily led to violence, however, we'll never know, because I didn't even get to the point where words were exchanged. Have you ever heard the saying "all that is required for evil to win in this world is for enough good men to do nothing"? This guy will probably keep behaving like this because there are too many people like me who do nothing.

Consider also that it wasn't just me that he was offending, it was also my ex- who does not eat red meat or anything that has been cooked with it on idealogical grounds. I know this isn't going to go down well with the women on this forum, who are probably amongst the most liberated I've ever encountered, but I am one of those old fashioned guys that believe if you cant support your woman you don't deserve her. Yes I know, I'm a neanderthal.

Moreover, what is the point of doing BJJ if you're not prepared to go that far? Of course I wanted to talk him down. Of course I didn't want to have to fight over something so stupid as a BBQ. But the fact is, we do this kind of training precisely so that we will not be intimidated by another person threatening to escalate such a situation to violence- so that we will be confident enough to reason with the other person.

Hmmm, in that case, yes, it was an unnaceptable act of submission, in particular in you have your ex. I don't mean to say you have to fight him off, but you should have ask him to at least wait until your ex cooked the sausages. But that's as far as I would have taken it. It was still not enough reason to escalate anything... really.

True, a man that can't defend her woman or stand his ground doesn't deserve her... true, even a lot of liberal ladies may consider that (and even if they don't, who the **** cares.) Stop worrying what some liberal lady may think or not of your notions of chivarly.

You are not here in this world to earn the approval of some random woman, man, Martian or whatever over the internet or in real life. **** that wimp crap. Be a man (I mean it in a good way, **** that **** way of thinking - you believe in what you believe. Make the best out of it, and so be it.)

Now as for your ex... she is an inconsiderate, arrogant, bitch an spoiled oh-no-red-meat-4-me princess, and stupid ignorant son of a bitch dumbass. Sorry to laid it out like that.

A woman worth of serious consideration would have never put you in such a situation to begin with, much less walked out in front of you "thanking you" like that in front of a stranger who just happened to have humiliated you.

Real nice partners worth more than a nightstand would never walked out of you like that. If she were nice, she would have complained to you in private. She had reasons (somewhat) to complain... but her arrogance led her to do so in the most inappropriate way.

Even more, she (or anyone nice and normal independent of gender) wouldn't have so much of a fucking pet-peeve over something so insignificant as a BBQ. A nice relationship partner worth considering would never put his/her partner in a potentially violent (verbal or physical confrontation.

**** that kind of woman. Get yourself a nice gal who eats whatever, who watches your back, who is not some pampered, sandal-wearing, weekend-activist that clings to the new cliches of new-age, neo-hippy, hug-and-three-and-save-a-whale ideological crap, and whenever she has a complain about your behavior (valid or otherwise), she lets you know in private as it should be.

You failed to demonstrate at least some verbal control of the situation and allowed an stranger to walk over you. Your girlfriend demonstrated an infinite amount of stupidity, selfishness, and a lack of care in dragging you into a potentially violent conflict and to top it off, disrespected you by walking off you like that.

NOW THIS: you were in a no-win situation. If you had said something, things would have escalated, unless you backed off... and in that case, your ex-bitch would still have complained about your lack of support.

You don't fix one wrong (you not saying anything) with another one (she doing what she did). Very mature lady she is, huh.

As for BJJ, it's not BJJ or martial arts fault that they do not instill you confidence. Martial Arts gives you physical and mental tools. But to use them effectively, there got to be some intelligence behind it.

My friend, you have problems with your selfconfidence. The fact that you dated such a hippie, spoiled wacko, and that you worry about what some stranger liberal lady may think of your neanderthal ways over the internet tells me so. No amount of martial arts training will fix that.

You have to build your self-confidence from within:

Rule 1: Unless you are hurting or potential causing hurt on someone, do not ever give a rat ass on whatever the **** men and women may think of you or your ideas. You are a man - your notions and values are yours alone. You do not need the approval of people. Don't seek it. Read askmen.com or David D'Angelo's columns on that subject.

Rule 2: Still avoid confrontations. In cases like the one you experienced, at least voice some concern, but know that you were in a no-win.

Rule 3: Stay away from spoiled, pampered, no-red-meat bitches. The more down to earth (.ie. no stupid pet-peeves) the better (and the least amount of headaches.)

Rule 4: If a g/f ever does the same again, dump her. She is not worth the headache (the same goes to women dating arrogant, spoiled hippie metro/EMO punks.)

Don't expect martial arts to build your confidence. That's your job. Good luck.

MrMcFu
9/27/2006 7:53am,
My friend, you have problems with your selfconfidence. The fact that you dated such a hippie, spoiled wacko, and that you worry about what some stranger liberal lady may think of your neanderthal ways over the internet tells me so.

The problem is those are the ones that usually give the best head and are willing to take facials.

Teh El Macho
9/27/2006 8:09am,
The problem is those are the ones that usually give the best head and are willing to take facials.hmmm... actually, yuo do really have a good point there :P

Lv1Sierpinski
9/27/2006 8:20am,
The problem is that confidence comes into play in many different areas. You may kick ass at fixing ****, or trading on the market; but socially there is a big line between confidence in initiating a physical altercation, and retaliating against someone. And when it comes to crossing that line between verbal and physical, it is totally complicated by friends or partners on hand, because their expectation of retaliation rarely jives with your own...and the way it affects their day can be totally different as well. I care very little about what others think and am quick to forget about things that don't affect me, but my girlfriend is quick to get irked by things and they stay with her far longer than even makes sense to me...which hasn't really been an issue yet, but someday I'm sure something will come up.

You just do what you gotta do man. Clearly this is bugging you. And we all know how aggravating it is to look back at something and think "**** I should have just decked him"...but if that's just not you, don't sweat it. I mean, at the end of the day, none of us here care that you didn't start some **** and slam his face on the grill.

Except maybe Alex.

Goju - Joe
9/27/2006 8:36am,
Interresting delema.

For one I would have shared the BBQ, it's a puiblic BBQ and chances are red meat's been cooked on it a lot. If people are polite I am very easy going and accomodating

2 if I said no and the guy did it anyways I would have lost my temper as rudeness is the only thing that sets me off.

3 Lets suppose you got in a fight, took the guys back RNC'd him and in the fit of anger held it on to long and he died. You're now going to jail over a fucking BBQ.

It's a no win situation.

**** like that can eat you up. The other guy was an asshole. Your best bet is in your mind say "I forgive him" and move on.