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View Full Version : Erle Montaguie (sp??) Is he the real thing.



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thomasaaron
7/21/2003 8:21am,
I decided to start a new thread on this.

Somebody said that the jury was still out on whether or not Tai Chi "fighter" Earl Montigue was the real deal. Here is my answer.

99.99999999999% of the people criticizing him couldn't whip him. So, I say Earl get's to decide who the "real deal" is.

I've been in TC for six years, and I've yet to see an expert who can truly demonstrate what Tai Chi looks like in real combat without it dissentigrating into CRAP.

This includes lineage holders like Master Henry Luk.

Earl has taken the art and extracted what seems real to him. In my book, that takes a certain amount of brilliance.

Fighting Spirit is 90% of the battle. If you don't have it, you ain't **** -- regardless of what style you practice.

Combatman
7/21/2003 8:28am,
You have a point here, many people on the 'net who go off on "traditional" martial artists, etc. couldn't beat the guy thay're ripping into. Whether Dim-Mak is combat effective is a matter of debate. I know Earle is very critical of George Dillman's pressure point method telling people to not let Dillman knock them out at seminars. Earle also has a very low opinion of combat sports calling them "gross." His basic take is the martial arts are for self-defense, period. He has a point.

RobP
7/21/2003 10:27am,
Well the tiaji purists would aruge "sure, EM has extracted what suits him from the art, but does that then make it "real" taiji?".

I could shoot all the taiji masters. Does that make me good at taiji?

Sure, I've not seen anyone either who can work "real" taiji in a fight - but perhaps that is because it is not a combat style?

Where EM gets into hot water is with his lineage claims and other stories. See, the problem is in the taiji world, no-one gives a toss about what you have unless you have "lineage". If people don't have one sometimes they will invent one, and that kind of thing will catch up with you at some point.

thomasaaron
7/21/2003 11:00am,
ROBP: Your "shooting all the taiji masters" example may be a little over-stretched.

There is an addage in Taiji that states: One posture, ten thousand applications.

That leaves a LOT of room for interpretation in REAL Taiji. It also leaves LITTLE room for being judgemental about the techniques of another.

Here are my thoughts on what makes up REAL taiji.

1. Lineage aside, If it follows Taiji principles and does NOT work - it ain't real.
2. Lineage aside, If it follows Taiji and you claim it works, but you can't or won't prove it - it ain't real.
3. Lineage aside, If it doesn't follow taiji principles and it does NOT work - it ain't real.
4. Lineage aside, If it doesn't follow taiji principles and it DOES work - it is something else.
5. Lineage aside, If it follows Taiji principles, and it DOES work. It is real.

Earl's stuff seems to follow Taiji principles. It seems to work. Thus, it sure as heck seems like real taiji. Thus, lineage holders who can't beat him should have to kiss his butt.



Fighting Spirit is 90% of the battle. If you don't have it, you ain't **** -- regardless of what style you practice.

RobP
7/21/2003 12:17pm,
"Earl's stuff seems to follow Taiji principles"

But it's that "seems too" that gets all the people arguing. And he is claiming to be a lineage holder himself. So if he beats himself could he kiss his own butt?

thomasaaron
7/21/2003 12:43pm,
"So if he beats himself could he kiss his own butt?"

Uh, you lost me on that one.

In essence, there is no way to judge what is and what is not Tai Chi, as the various techniques are open to individual interpretation (one posture, ten thousand applications). So, if earl's stuff works and it looks like tai chi, smells like tai chi, feels like tai chi... then, isn't it tai chi?

And what good is the word of a bunch of stinkin' lineage holders that can't fight?

I would have to say - BIG FAT ZERO!


Fighting Spirit is 90% of the battle. If you don't have it, you ain't **** -- regardless of what style you practice.

RobP
7/21/2003 4:35pm,
"In essence, there is no way to judge what is and what is not Tai Chi"

Hehe, you've never argued with Mike Sigman have you?

I don't have an axe to grind either why, I've don't feel obligated to the lineage holders who, as you say, mostly can't fight, but I also take issue with some of EM's stuff

IndoChinese
7/21/2003 5:03pm,
in my system we use "taiji" stuff and "bagua" stuff, and some "hsinyi"ish type of movement.

internal art is not confined to one venue.

i dont know much about Earl Montague, but i would take objection to the assertion from anyone that taiji must fit some specific guidelines(aside from well established principles of physics).

the principles that make taiji 'special' are in fact quite natural and evident in many arts, just given a different name. i read a quote regarding martial arts once that i agree with wholeheartedly, " ALL SYSTEMS ARE ARTIFICIAL, THEY DO NOT EXIST".

i have encountered numerous individuals who consider my art to be pakua, it is not. but , they do share the emphasis on certain PRINCIPLES, and thus bear a similarity in technique. but the concept of a 'style' is erroneous, it is only the underlying principles that are important. a purpose is governed by principles, the methods and tools used to accomplish a given purpose may vary wildly and all be appropriate.

imo, lineage can be indicative of quality instruction but is in no way a guarantee of proficiency or legitamacy.

evrybody has to make their own way.

if E. Montague is effective, no matter his 'deviation' from form, then he is doing 'taiji', not the people who blindly follow a 'system'.

martial arts are 'sciences', not 'systems'.

peace.

<marquee>REDANTKUNTAO</marquee>
<marquee> INDONESIAN GUNG FU</marquee>

Blad3
7/21/2003 8:04pm,
From reading his site, if I remember correctly, he seemed to be against sports fighting / combative sports especially the UFC, so I would say he is anything but the real deal. Does he have a fight record at all? If I'm wrong then I apologise.

"Wrestling is the Martial Art of America";
"If you don't know how to wrestle you don't know how to fight, that's the prerequisite to fighting" David Tank Abbott (http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/displayfighter.cfm?fighterid=110)


Edited by - Blade Windu on July 21 2003 20:07:59

Dr_Santo
7/21/2003 8:10pm,
I don't know if he does, but he sure have good books about fighting in the street.
And i've seen some videos of him, i think he's good.

Blad3
7/21/2003 8:16pm,
"I've been in TC for six years, and I've yet to see an expert who can truly demonstrate what Tai Chi looks like in real combat without it dissentigrating into CRAP." no believe me, you have seen what TCC can do in combat.

"Wrestling is the Martial Art of America";
"If you don't know how to wrestle you don't know how to fight, that's the prerequisite to fighting" David Tank Abbott (http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/displayfighter.cfm?fighterid=110)

Combatman
7/21/2003 8:51pm,
He says combat sports are "gross."

Blad3
7/21/2003 9:15pm,
lol.

"Wrestling is the Martial Art of America";
"If you don't know how to wrestle you don't know how to fight, that's the prerequisite to fighting" David Tank Abbott (http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/displayfighter.cfm?fighterid=110)

baltasargracian
7/21/2003 10:53pm,
Earl is definately the real deal, a dedicated researcher and teacher of chinese MA.


I dont know if having a proven fight record is relevant to what he does though.

RobP
7/22/2003 4:35am,
Funnily enough EM was a wrestler in Oz in his early days.

Kail
7/22/2003 7:01am,
"he seemed to be against sports fighting / combative sports especially the UFC, so I would say he is anything but the real deal. Does he have a fight record at all?"

Blade, do yu have a fight record on a pro level? If not, I guess, by your own criteria your only half the deal. Not ever good fighter sings the praises of the UFC or has a pro record. There are plenty around content to do something else, and can still kick tail when needed.

As to EM and his dislike of Dillman, I think some of that has to do with competing for the same market. Not knocking his skill since I haven't seen him in action, but both men have a line out on preasure point fighting. Competition over lively hood can lead to not really liking the other person.