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wagamichi
8/13/2006 5:19pm,
Well here it is. We spend a lot of time rooting out the bullshido in the world, we bitch, we investigate, we uncover. But that is all we do. Can we do more?

My instructor and a few others mostly LEO black belts had grown tired of the Bullshido in our region. i.e. if you did not point fight at the Saturday tournament you are not a fighter. What ever! Dumbasses.

So we set out to make a federation of schools that went the other way. Contact, fighting, real techniques that work on unwilling people. Schools that train people to really fight.

So we set up an organization that was free to join, that does not issue rank for money, an organization that does not even require schools to have rank. They just need to be able to teach real fighting.

Now granted, being professional training facilities, there will always be elements of Mcdojoisim simply because this ain’t the Make a wish foundation. Someone has to pay for the rent, lights, mats, bags, and so on. But most of these schools use the masses to pay for the real hardcore fighters that want to train.

So we set up the organization…and then realized there were not enough schools that are not Bullshido in Indiana to make it any sort of real Referral agency for those looking far a good school. The goal was that if it had the federation stamp, you were going to get good instruction.

Then I find Bullshido. I have seen the conviction of the people on here and spent time myself debating with the brethren about this issue. I have seen the power of the internet brought to bear on those that want to scam the public. As an example, you can’t Google fang shen do without our threads being on the first page. Anyone in Canada will have hours of information to read on that club if they use the net to look up their “new” school.

I guess what I am saying and asking if we should debate is the need for a “real organization with our members and our members clubs” that can act as a “better business bureau” for the martial arts. Now this would be scam free ****! No fee to join! Instead you prove the right to join.

Our federation has the heavy hitters from Indy in it. Montero’s Bjj has joined. Integrated fighting has joined. And the rest of the schools I have seen so far are crap and have not been allowed to join. There is no rules, no dues, (I pay to for the web site out of my own pocket.) no interference with any of the clubs. We have seminars and even cross train at each others clubs because we belong to the org.

Can this concept be taken nation or even world wide? Can this forum turn into more than just a place to vent? Could it become an International stamp of approval (not because the “Grandmaster” says so, but rather because the organization says so.)

Given the diversity of arts represented here, there would have to be divisions like TMA, Sport arts, Weapons arts, you get the picture. It is not important what linage or method one teaches or does but rather does it work?

Is it time for us to do this. We have the collective power to be “something” over night. The question is should we? And how do we do it without the ego and politics getting in that ruin every other org. The fact that it would be free of money would be a good start.

The fact that to join, if not known, you would actualy have to show what you do to a rep in that region that decides yea or nay. your $200.00 entry fee means nothing. Show what you do at a throw down in your area to join.
What think you?

wagamichi
8/13/2006 5:31pm,
Oh yea, before I am accused of it, i am not trying to get people to join my org. thats why i did not post the site. I am not spaming.

But basicly the operations of the org would be charter clubs (those in the org) A hit list (those being investigated or pending approval) and a black list (those messured and found wanting)

pauli
8/13/2006 5:51pm,
i think your list terminology could use some work. "you want me to sign up for a hit list, at the risk of being blacklisted?"

Ke?poFist
8/13/2006 5:54pm,
I see the politics of this thing overcoming it after a year or so of inception. If it were to be a seal of approval for schools who train "alive" and "hard" then that's all well and good but then wouldn't it be easier to just check the records of guys from said schools competitions to judge the schools worth in that regard? For a "TMA" section, the politics would be mind-numbing. And what if a school was good, but then went McDojo? Would the org be willing to turn on one of their own for acts of blasphemy like that, and kick them out publically? I suppose since no money would be involved it would reduce the corruption in that regard, but I still feel like it's more of a headache than it's worth.

wagamichi
8/13/2006 5:55pm,
i think your list terminology could use some work. "you want me to sign up for a hit list, at the risk of being blacklisted?"


Well change it to pending and found and investigating. Like for coda scott.

wagamichi
8/13/2006 5:56pm,
I see the politics of this thing overcoming it after a year or so of inception. If it were to be a seal of approval for schools who train "alive" and "hard" then that's all well and good but then wouldn't it be easier to just check the records of guys from said schools competitions to judge the schools worth in that regard? For a "TMA" section, the politics would be mind-numbing. And what if a school was good, but then went McDojo? Would the org be willing to turn on one of their own for acts of blasphemy like that, and kick them out publically? I suppose since no money would be involved it would reduce the corruption in that regard, but I still feel like it's more of a headache than it's worth.


It would be a ton of work for sure. But worth it?

Soju_King
8/13/2006 5:57pm,
so u going back to the old days of schools proving thier systems......sounds like a good direction despite the challenges by freedom of enterprise from which

mc dojang cowards can hide under. have fun

mrblackmagic
8/13/2006 6:19pm,
I rather like Bullshido as a grass roots movement. I don't know how I'd feel if we became "The Man."

Lv1Sierpinski
8/13/2006 7:56pm,
I think in practice a large organization is a bad idea. Ultimately we want people to ask questions about schools, training methods, instructors, etc.; and an organization that seeks to stamp a school just absolves people of that responsibility. I think a much better way to go would be for local MA schools to interact with each other more to both raise the game and to help people find solid training (which sounds like what was initially started with wag's org so kudos!). Branching out is a logistical nightmare that I think would lead to problems (some of which have been already raised).

I think the most beneficial thing to do would be for anyone interested to get the word of throwdowns and similar collective training events to any schools in their area and go from there. Even contacting Mcdojos in the spirit of collaboration would be good; don't call them out, but send out the invite, introduce people to the notion that full contact is not as dangerous as they think and that full resistance aids training, and slowly the entire local scene is improved.

Anyway that's just my take on it.

bodhistate
8/13/2006 10:11pm,
Next up the gov gets involved, and they start taxing and regulating instruction, and unless you want to learn a clean and sanitized version of MMA (lawsuits, remember, from stupid people will show up left and right), you won't be able to do any MA unless it is underground.

Sounds like your idea, while well-intentioned, aims at all schools looking the same, acting the same, and striving for the same thing, which is hardly the case. You'd turn MA into boxing.

Ke?poFist
8/13/2006 10:22pm,
Next up the gov gets involved, and they start taxing and regulating instruction, and unless you want to learn a clean and sanitized version of MMA (lawsuits, remember, from stupid people will show up left and right), you won't be able to do any MA unless it is underground.

That would already be the case. This would just be an independant org that would create a database of quality schools. Hardly something that the gov could get involved in.


Sounds like your idea, while well-intentioned, aims at all schools looking the same, acting the same, and striving for the same thing, which is hardly the case. You'd turn MA into boxing.

This is like arguing that MMA venues aim at making everyone do the same thing. Yet we still have various arts that focus their expertise in various ranges of fighting. Why is that?

Lv1Sierpinski
8/13/2006 11:06pm,
Sounds like your idea, while well-intentioned, aims at all schools looking the same, acting the same, and striving for the same thing, which is hardly the case. You'd turn MA into boxing.
I don't think anyone is interested in schools looking or acting the same. The goal is for students striving for the same thing (in this case improved fighting ability) to be able to get it in a semi-quality controlled manner. By and large, that simply means training that consists of resisting opponents and frank, honest instruction about what can realistically be expected to work.

From this point of view, you could look at a school that does forms and other...I'll say 'less-than-realistic' training, but that also encourages hard sparring, good fighting habits, etc. Is this type of school going to pump out world class fighters, no. But so long as this school is directly making its students better fighters, and encourages students who want more to go out and get it, I say fantastic. I should note that I've qualified the outcomes as 'direct' because many might make the case that a more fit student is automatically a better fighter, but the instruction should do more than that.

I should say that I don't necessarily believe that a school needs to train fighters (I mean, I train wushu...I'd never use it to fight, it's an absolute blast and far and away one of the best workouts I've ever had); but if that's what they say they do, then they better do it right.

There is a right and a wrong way to learn to fight. The problem is that most people don't know any better and thus prefer to train the wrong way...so schools have solved that problem by saying the wrong way is in fact the right way and come up with lots of excuses to prove it.

wagamichi
8/14/2006 6:19am,
Sounds like your idea, while well-intentioned, aims at all schools looking the same, acting the same, and striving for the same thing, which is hardly the case. You'd turn MA into boxing.



No...

How many businesses belong to the BBB? A school belongs and has a review on the Org website. Mabey a scale of 1-10 or a five star rating like this.


John doe's martial arts center:

Score 1-10. 1 being the worst 10 being the highest.

Overal rating 8
Mcdojo traits 3 (charges, teaches children,)
Mcsensei traits 3 (charges, teaches children,)
Instruction 9
Student quality 9
Competitive quality 1 (students don't compete)
Club quality 7 (new building)

Lv1Sierpinski
8/14/2006 6:41am,
I do like the thought of some type of centralized system to give info (of a general nature, like can I drop in if I'm just in town for a week) as well as ratings. It is tough to get rating systems to give an accurate account of a school. I think providing a good breakdown of different areas is the key, make performance indicators very specific. You're also then left with the issue of who rates them...students know the place, but are hardly good objective judges of a school's shortcomings.

PirateJon
8/14/2006 6:59am,
Good idea, needs better execution. Building quality? Nyet. Same with kids. Just teaching kids doesn't mean it's a mcdojo. See boxing, wrestling, judo. Same as with adults, the difference is aliveness and competition.

A simple pass/fail would help keep politics and subjective judgements to a minimum. Do you train 'alive'? Then you meet the minimum requirements.



You'd turn MA into boxing.
You say that like it's a bad thing. Alive sparring, focus on competition, great conditioning, effective technique, low cost, free youth programs (PAL), good infrastructure, etc. More 'MAs' should have those.