View Full Version : Staying on the ground

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7/16/2003 4:26pm,
To begin….I do not want this to become a ‘BJJ sucks for self-defense’ or ‘strikers can’t fight on the ground’ thread.

I have a serious question that I’d like those of you who have more experience than me in grappling to answer.

I believe that BJJ is a very effective means of fighting on the ground. However, it seems that in order to fight on the ground for any length of time, both parties need to want to stay on the ground. For example, I’m 5’11’’, 225 pounds, pretty strong and pretty fast for my size. In my experience, I’m pretty hard to take down to the ground. However, assuming I get taken down, how do you grapplers deal with the fact that I’m gonna fight like hell to get back on my feet? Do you think that in the few seconds we are both on the ground, with me throwing as many punches as I can get off, you can get into position to execute a choke or arm bar or other technique? Keep in mind that I’m doing EVERYTHING I can to get up: bite, eye gouge, pinch, etc. If a 225 pound man REALLY wants to get off the ground, can you stop him without opening yourself up to getting pummeled?

I guess what I’m really asking is: What type of techniques would a grappler use to keep a quick, strong opponent on the ground if that opponent REALLY wants to get up?

Thanks in advance.

7/16/2003 4:42pm,
I believe that a 225 lb man trained to keep people on the ground could keep another 225 lb man on the ground.

7/16/2003 11:55pm,
It is pretty simple to keep someone on the ground, especially if they are not trained to fight there or less trained then you. There is nothing stopping me from biting and gouging as well from a superior position.

7/17/2003 12:55am,
biting and pitching complicates things, but essentially it's the struggling for the dominant positions that counts, as long as I could get into a mount or backmount or even a guard then I think I have a good advantage in terms of position, after that it's all a matter of either going for strike victory or joint lock or a choke victory, it's probably best to catch you with a rear naked choke tucking my head into your back so you can't elbow back or headbutt me, while securing my hold with a figure 4 (pretty much crossing my legs across your stomach but tucking my right foot behind my left knee), and u are right, gouging pinching and biting do make a grapplers life alot harder, but despite this their fundamental positioning and manuevering knowledge is always helpful on the ground, what's to prevent them from gouging, pinching, and biting you? from a better position to do it no less

Edited by - panda on July 17 2003 00:56:42

7/17/2003 1:00am,
and a good grappler always secures a POSITION before going for a finishing move like a choke or joint lock...unless u r rumina sato then u can do whatever u want i guess...

7/17/2003 2:58am,
Panda owns this thread, no more to say really.

Now imagine your pain is a white ball of healing light, that's right, your pain, the pain itself is a white ball of healing light....... I don't think so!

7/17/2003 3:45am,
Since when has somebody throwing punches stopped a grappler? It's a lot easier for you to keep someone on the ground than it is for them to get back up.

7/17/2003 4:27am,
This topic is just like anything else in MA or fighting, the person that knows more about what they are doing and can actually get it done will come out on top. Just as it is pretty easy for a trained person to keep an untrained guy down, it equally easy for a properly trained person to get up when and inferiorly trained person tries to keep him down on the ground.

If you don't like to be on the ground you better train enough takedown defense and escape work to make sure you don't end up there and you can get out if you do.

It won't save you against a NCAA All-American wrestler or some pissed off memeber of the Gracie clan, but lucky for us most people don't know what the hell they are doing, so they are unlikely to be able to keep you there if you want to get up and you know how to do it.

I generally don't like using pro MMA fighters as examples, mainly because their all so good that only a small percentage of us will ever approach their level, but look a Chuck Lidell. He alaways seemed to be able to get up when he wanted to. Too bad Courture, seemed more than ready for him after he did.

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7/17/2003 6:27am,
I could put the most basic judo hold on you, and you probably wouldn't have any chance to get up. You can start biting my arm, pinching me, or whatever, but then i'll start pushing my fingers up your nose.

Basically if you let somebody get a dominant position on you in a grapple then you're screwed unless you know how to get out... and that shouldn't be easy.

7/17/2003 7:35am,
Thanks for the replies.

I don't disagree with anything you guys have said. I do think that getting a "dominant" position is tough if the guy is realitively skilled in fighting and wants no part of being on the ground. And I also understand that those dirty little tricks (biting, eye gouging, pinching) are also available for grapplers. But, can a good grappler secure a dominant position with a finger in his eye? Remember, these dirty tricks have the SOLE purpose of distracting you long enough for me to get the hell up.

I also think that the majority of getting a dominant position depends on HOW you hit the ground. If I'm fighting to not go down, but feel like I'm gonna lose that fight, I'm gonna try like hell to go down in a manner that doesn't leave me completely screwed. I do understand that if you shoot on somebody, and can get them right on their back, they are most definitely fucked. But against a decent trained fighter, that should not be so easy.

Beatdown Richie
7/17/2003 7:51am,
Finger in the eye? Depends where you start from. If the grappler has a reasonably good position to begin with and keeps his cool, he might just turn his head and move it away from you. If you extend your arm to follow, you're in risk of an armbar. If not, you've just lost the gouge, and may have your arm grabbed and twisted anyway.

I haven't tried biting and pinching, but I don't see how they would do anything except piss the other guy off. Unless you bite off a hand or something...

You're right about the going to the ground thing.
If you're skilled, lucky, and adjust to the takedown at the right moment, you have a decent chance of getting guard or at least half guard. Then you hope that you practiced your sweeps enough ;-).

7/17/2003 8:45am,
You ever wonder why all TMAs have a stereotypical focus on "balance" training at first? If you always had perfect balance and were trained to maintain it under all circumstances(takedowns, etc.), it should take some effort to destroy your balance. This day and age, I hardly see any TMAs focusing on balance training.

Beatdown Richie
7/17/2003 8:58am,
That's a big IF... I trained traditional aikido for a couple of years, and a lot of emphasis was put on the stance and being balanced and everything. It turns out that this particular stance may be okay if you have enough distance from the opponent, but it gets you a footsweep or a single leg takedown in seconds if you try it in the clinch, and no one ever mentioned that.

7/17/2003 9:16am,
I love the "i'll just bite him" response from non-groundfighters. I used to think that. But now after taking BJJ for a few months i realize it is not all that easy. My instructor can take me down and tie me up on the way. I usually don't have my hands free. And the last thing you want to do against a grappler is to stick your hands way out reaching for something. That's one of the first htings you learn not to do.

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7/17/2003 9:42am,
Amp, if you get taken to the ground without sprawling, the best position you can be in is the guard. Both legs wrapped around opponent's midsection, hands controlling the arms or the head, depending upon how much clothing you have on. Lots of submissions and sweeps from this position, as well as strikes.

The guy taking you down will almost always get some sort of top position, whether it be inside your guard, north-south or side control. Dirty **** like biting or eye gouging from bottom will get you nothing but a lot of pain. You're just not going to get up that easily.

I suggest you spar with some wrestlers, judokas, sambists or BJJers in order to find this out for yourself. Judging by the questions you have asked, it appears that you haven't done this.

7/17/2003 11:58am,
I suggest you spar with some wrestlers, judokas, sambists or BJJers in order to find this out for yourself. Judging by the questions you have asked, it appears that you haven't done this.

I have sparred with many wrestlers, and only on BJJer. I'm asking the questions to get some ideas. I'm not a grappler. I don't do BJJ. I do train some ground fighting. I have fought people who were much better on the ground than me. I have beaten most of them...by getting my ass off the ground, or not ever going down.

Though some of the responses are good ones, that vast majority of them are along the lines of "it's easy to keep them on the ground."...or "you need to spar"...

I have a sneaky suspicion that the vast majority of you have never been in a REAL (high school fights not included)fight.

Incidently, while sparring is important, the way in which you spar is even more important. The VAST majority of martial artists who say they spar do it in an uneffective manner.

In any case, thank you all for your insight.