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Wolf
7/25/2006 8:14am,
Ok folks. As promised to a backfistmonkey here's a split from the "Is Kuk Sool Won anygood" thread in Newbietown. I realized that since I've been on Bullshido I haven't really had much of a hard time from any of you (except maybe a little on the MAP video megathread). So, I suppose now is the time for the raping I never got when I came here.

Here's your chance to ask or tell me anything you want about Kuk Sool Won. I'll admit my internet debate skills are anything but top notch. There's a good chance I'll type something that makes no sense, or may seem to contradict something else. So some of you word magicians may have a lot of fun with this one. Anyway, enough of the pleasantries, I'm ready to run this gauntlet.

Have at it!

Goju - Joe
7/25/2006 9:11am,
Great!

My theory on the pink fan and why it is an effective martial arts tool.

Let's say someone was going to fight you. All of sudden you whip out a pink fluffy fan and start waving it at them. They're like "WTF?" and stand thier stunned, and then you kick them hard in the nuts.

Pink Fluffy fan is the ultimate distractor out side of a nice pair of boobs.

sochin101
7/25/2006 9:20am,
Pink Fluffy fan is the ultimate distractor out side of a nice pair of boobs.

Indeed! Everytime I see a pink fluffy fan, I assume it's gonna be whipped away to reveal boobs.



Here's your chance to ask or tell me anything you want about Kuk Sool Won
Sorry for my ignorance, but how do you define Kuk Sool Won? I understood it to be a blanket term for Korean martial arts (but, that's not from personal knowledge, only from what I've read/heard).

Wolf
7/25/2006 9:28am,
Sorry for my ignorance, but how do you define Kuk Sool Won? I understood it to be a blanket term for Korean martial arts (but, that's not from personal knowledge, only from what I've read/heard).

Well, the literal translation of Kuk Sool Won is National (or in this case Korean) Martial Arts Organization. I suppose the art itself is just Kuk Sool (the Won is the Organization part). Basically, it's a term that Suh, In Hyuk gave his art which is a relative/offshoot of Hapkido. I'd link you to the kuk sool won website, but their history is a bit far fetched (hmmm a korean art with a sketchy past?).

Kuk Sool Won is a term only used by the World Kuk Sool Association, except for a few schools in Canada that broke away and used the term before an international trademark was received by the WKSA.

So, it's not really a blanket term. Just a name for a Hapkido cousin.

Lu Tze
7/25/2006 9:44am,
My impression of Kuk Sool Won: Blatent McDojo franchise designed to entice the maximum amount of cash from punters. Probably a rather large portion of bullshido thrown into the mix too (don't want those punters to get hurt, they'll stop paying!).

Completely fabricated history.

Expensive 'ceremonial' uniforms and equipment.

The "we do everything, don't you dare spend your money to cross train anywhere!" attitude. That's bad enough as it is, but I've heard that after a certain rank members are forbidden from learning other arts (don't know if this is true, sounds far fetched even for this).

99% forms.

Gimmicky, unrealistic photographs designed to impress the uninformed. From everybody. It seems that a requirement for dan ranking is to be able to do these.

Fucking point sparring.

Absolutely abysmal 'breaking'. Ok hardcore old school guys breaking real bricks with their faces is something you can respect in martial arts, whether such things are applicable against real people or not, but the breaking you guys do is a joke. You'd get more resistance out of dried pasta than you do out of those 'boards'.

Cult like worship of the 'grandmaster'.

Tell me if I'm off the mark at all here...

Asriel
7/25/2006 10:15am,
I saw Kuk Sool Won at Seni one year. All they did was run at each other, jump past each other and roll when they hit the floor.

Wolf
7/25/2006 10:16am,
Ok, this is what I was looking for...

My impression of Kuk Sool Won: Blatent McDojo franchise designed to entice the maximum amount of cash from punters. Probably a rather large portion of bullshido thrown into the mix too (don't want those punters to get hurt, they'll stop paying!).

I'm not going to, or at least try not to, candy coat anything. Basically, yes, there are schools that do what you just mentioned. That's a problem with just about any somewhat widespread MA. That's part of finding a good school.


Completely fabricated history.
As I mentioned earlier the history is suspect, but this is the case in most KMA's because of the fierce nationalism and dislike of the japanese. As for this, I'm able to seperate the "history" from the art.


Expensive 'ceremonial' uniforms and equipment.
None of this is required to be a student. The expensive Generals Uniforms which everyone on here loves so much have, in the past, only been required for blackbelts that want to compete in forms/weapons divisions in tournaments. I believe (though I could be wrong since I haven't competed in over a year) that they're getting away from this. Basically it's like formalwear for demos anymore, but it's NOT required to own one of these. As for the equipment, if you mean the weapons, most schools will allow you to use school equipment.


The "we do everything, don't you dare spend your money to cross train anywhere!" attitude. That's bad enough as it is, but I've heard that after a certain rank members are forbidden from learning other arts (don't know if this is true, sounds far fetched even for this).
I believe this is technically the attitude after one receives blackbelt. However, I have never once heard of it being enforced. Anymore, I don't think anyone cares. We even have at least master who has been cross-training in BJJ in an effort to expand the ground game of his students.


99% forms.
Just untrue. There is 1 empty handed form per belt rank. The once you hit BB you get some weapons forms thrown in. Some people don't like forms. I personally enjoy them, and I don't see anything wrong with them. This is as long as one understands that forms don't actually teach you practical application of movement, but rather aid in stretching and muscle conditioning. To give you an example of the number of forms I'm a 1st Dahn. There are 6 belts before black. So essentially I'm on the 7th rank. I have learned 7 empty handed forms and 4 weapons forms.


Gimmicky, unrealistic photographs designed to impress the uninformed. From everybody. It seems that a requirement for dan ranking is to be able to do these.
I have no defense for this. Yeah, some people like to pose.


Fucking point sparring.
This is for tournaments only. Once again, this is dependent upon school. I have trained in near full contact sparring at one of my schools (though limited targets, i.e. no groin or knee shots, or back). Some instructors push realistic sparring more than others. My current school infact does a modified type grappling in which you sit on your knees facing each other trying to apply different techniques (locks and such) against each other.


Absolutely abysmal 'breaking'. Ok hardcore old school guys breaking real bricks with their faces is something you can respect in martial arts, whether such things are applicable against real people or not, but the breaking you guys do is a joke. You'd get more resistance out of dried pasta than you do out of those 'boards'.
Examples please? I've always had to break standard 10x12 pine boards. And now they're speed breaks which means they're barely held, making them more difficult to break. I'm not stating there's any practical app to breaking, but you brought it up, so I'm telling you I haven't seen any difference in our breaking as other styles.


Cult like worship of the 'grandmaster'.
It's respect, not worship. He's the founder of the style, so we respect him. When I see him in real life, I bow to him. He, unlike some styles, is an extremely personable guy. He'll shoot the **** with even the lowest grades and tell jokes with you. People respect him because he doesn't COMMAND respect. He knows we pay his bills, and treats us like real people, not subjects.


Tell me if I'm off the mark at all here...
So yeah, I thought you were off the mark a bit.

Wolf
7/25/2006 10:17am,
I saw Kuk Sool Won at Seni one year. All they did was run at each other, jump past each other and roll when they hit the floor.

Acrobatics is also a (Optional) part of the curriculum that a lot of people like to demo. Not much I can say about it other than that.

Asriel
7/25/2006 10:47am,
Ah I see. They seemed to make it look like acrobatics was the be all and end all of the system.

oni
7/25/2006 11:12am,
but really, the uniforms. i mean, HOW can you train in a roll neck sweater thing?

Backdraft
7/25/2006 11:17am,
What the **** are the pink fans for?

Wolf
7/25/2006 11:35am,
but really, the uniforms. i mean, HOW can you train in a roll neck sweater thing?

We don't train in those uniforms. We train in plain black doboks. Usually there is a set of patches you get from the WKSA, but it's a regular dobok. My current one I got for $40 from my instructor which he got through tigerclaw. Those you speak of are for demo only.


What the **** are the pink fans for?
Well, the fan is a traditional Korean Royal Court weapon. One starts learning to use it at 3rd Dahn. This includes strikes with it folded up as well as strikes with it open because they were somtimes made to have sharpened spines. As I understand it this weapon was traditionally used by the female bodyguards of the Royal Court because it was eaily concealed. As for why they're pink today. My guess is that in Korea the color pink doesn't have the same feminine connotation it does here. Though, I could be wrong on that last one. Any Korean historians (DerAuslander) feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about the history at all.

Lu Tze
7/25/2006 12:13pm,
KSWolf you're no fun to troll, you're far too rational and coherent.


Examples please? I've always had to break standard 10x12 pine boards. And now they're speed breaks which means they're barely held, making them more difficult to break. I'm not stating there's any practical app to breaking, but you brought it up, so I'm telling you I haven't seen any difference in our breaking as other styles.Your wish is my command.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH55YXtGCtM&search=kuk%20sool%20won

Those kicks, such power, such vigour... I think his next trick was breaking matchsticks or something...



I believe this is technically the attitude after one receives blackbelt. However, I have never once heard of it being enforced. Anymore, I don't think anyone cares. We even have at least master who has been cross-training in BJJ in an effort to expand the ground game of his students.

[..]

It's respect, not worship. He's the founder of the style, so we respect him. When I see him in real life, I bow to him. He, unlike some styles, is an extremely personable guy. He'll shoot the **** with even the lowest grades and tell jokes with you. People respect him because he doesn't COMMAND respect. He knows we pay his bills, and treats us like real people, not subjects.The policy stated above about cross training being forbidden, that's official policy right? Well this man is the personification of the institution that instigated that policy, in all likelyhood it came directly from him. How can you respect that? And if you ignore the policy then you obviously don't respect him as much as you say.

Face it, KSW is mcdojo from the top down. There are probably good schools and good people in it, but at the heart it's just a huge mc-franchise designed to wring money out of people, it's pretty much the embodiment of everything that Bullshido stands against.

Edit: wurst speelung eror evar.

WhiteShark
7/25/2006 12:27pm,
KSWolf if you had waited a week you wouldn't have ahd to post this thread. You will understand your martial position better on Saturday.

BackFistMonkey
7/25/2006 12:34pm,
KSWolf if you had waited a week you wouldn't have ahd to post this thread. You will understand your martial position better on Saturday.

Which brings me to my question ..


KSWolf ... are you really gonna try to bang using "straight" KSW ? You have no other Martial Art experience ?

hvyhands81
7/25/2006 12:42pm,
I believe this is technically the attitude after one receives blackbelt. However, I have never once heard of it being enforced. Anymore, I don't think anyone cares. We even have at least master who has been cross-training in BJJ in an effort to expand the ground game of his students.



Its also in an attempt to boost enrollment. Many "traditional" schools are now incorporating bjj to get people in the door. Its like saying 'welcome to the mcdojo/jang would you like fries with that'.

I'm just playin, I havent had a chance to see a kuk sool wan practitioner up close, looking forward to it.