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Wu Chi
7/10/2003 12:00pm,
It seems like karate is now NOT being considered an efficient combat system anymore.

In my opinion, it still produces some very though fighters, specially contact styles such as uechi-ryu, kyokushin kai and its offshots.

Also, if complemented by good groundfighting skills, it can be very effective.

Do you agree ?
Why ?

"Create as a God, command as a King, work as a Slave"

matzahbal
7/10/2003 12:36pm,
This is just going to lead to "Well, it depends are the school/practioneer, and how they train, blah blah blah"

That's true about any style: Kung Fu, Karate, MMA, ect.

Karate gets a bad rap because one of human nature: Somebody has a bad experience they tell 10 people, somebody has a good experience they only tell 3.


"But some apes they gotta go, so we kill the ones we don't know" - 'Ape shall never kill Ape' by The Vandals

J-kid
7/10/2003 12:40pm,
not really.....

Choke
7/10/2003 12:59pm,
"They have not done so with the obvious exceptions of kyoukoshinkai and a few other full contact styles."

WRONG! A myriad of law enforcent agencies here in the U.S. have been using Karate techniques for decades! What do you think the PR-24 (night stick) is based on?

I think Karate gets a bad rap because a plethora of shitty McDojos use the familiartity of it's name to boost sales.

_______________________________________
Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!

Boyd
7/10/2003 1:09pm,
You know Judo-Kid, I recall you once saying something along the lines of "karate blocks have been proven not to work in MMA" or something along those lines. Do you remember that? If so, could you elaborate please?

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cyrijl
7/10/2003 1:11pm,
it's easy to be good at hand to hand when you got five guns and ten hands

________________________________________________
It is not a dog eat dog world...it is much worse. It is like 'a dog does not return another dog's call' word.

Guns....the fifth range

Balloonknot
7/10/2003 1:26pm,
I mean no offense to the Karate folks, but to me the depth just isn't there. Karate turns me off! All that point sparring bullshit, board breaking, brick smashing, and 9 year old black belts, etc. Enough already! It seems to me that Karate is going the same way as TKD and becoming a little more sport oriented, and a lot less combat efficient. I know there are exceptions to the rule, and I'm sure there are some Karateka that can kick my ass, but on the whole I feel I'm right.

Some things I don't like about Karate is its obession with blocking and kicking. Also, there seems to be an over abundance of unnecessary movement, and too damn much kata! At least this is what I have seem from my experience.

On another note, the reason Karate was so popular in the 60/70's was because it appealed to the American and Japanese sense of machismo.

Besides, American's just didn't know any better.

I don't agree that Karate is the most efficient combat system. Definitely not, but better than some.

Xuanlong Xian
7/10/2003 1:48pm,
Aren't the blocks designed to stun/break incoming limbs? If someone did them correctly according to Karate theories, they should render the opponent's punching arm useless.

This brings up another question we've already talked about at length. If people can't train a technique to the level it's intended for, is it more their fault--or the technique/theory/system's fault?

Balloonknot
7/10/2003 2:03pm,
good point Xuan. breaking with blocking is kinda tough though.

Choke
7/10/2003 2:40pm,
"it's easy to be good at hand to hand when you got five guns and ten hands"

Ever been pulled over? Do you know what a correction officer does?

"Karate blocks do suck. Even in theory theyre stupid"

The soft deflecting blocks found Goju Ryu Karate are very effective. The harder, more typical Karate blocks are pretty effective against strong, committed attacks.

Against a technician they are garbage. To that end we agree. That is why Karatekas spar!

"All that point sparring bullshit, board breaking, brick smashing, and 9 year old black belts, etc. Enough already!"

Point sparring and 9 year old black belts have nothing to do with real Karate. Karate sparring looks like kickboxing sparring. The road to competency in Karate is a long and difficult expierience. It is impossible for a 9 year old child to show even token competency in Karate. You have to be strong and in shape to pull off even basic Karate techniques. This is impossible for many grown women as well. All respectable Karate schools have an 18+ age requirement to hold a shodan grade.

Tameshiwara, or breaking, is not a focus of Karate. However it is a test of strength and a display of perfect technique. Kyoukushin ,which everyone respects on this forum, is one of the styles that puts a strong emphisis on breaking.

"Some things I don't like about Karate is its obession with blocking and kicking."

I'm not sure what that means. Karate certainly does have an "obsession" with blocking and kicking, as well as sidestepping, punching, elbowing, and kneeing.

"Also, there seems to be an over abundance of unnecessary movement, and too damn much kata!"

Karate styles tradionally are very direct and basic martial arts. A typical Karate technique is side stepping your opponent then curling your hand into a fist and breaking his jaw with a punch.

Kata is an important part of many Karate styles including Kyoukushin, however, like breaking it is only a part in the mosaic of Karate training.

"I don't agree that Karate is the most efficient combat system. Definitely not, but better than some."

Noone is saying that. I think it's a great foundation art, though.







_______________________________________
Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!

Nihilanthic
7/10/2003 3:08pm,
Choke - we don't see that kind of smashy smashy karate. We see "mcdojos" and "soft" people as a result, and those that compete become kickboxers more or less.

Yes, all these hard kicks, hard punches, hard elbows, and hard knees are great, but the way most of them train (at least in the USA) SUCKS, if they even do the elbows and knees. And yes those huge swinging forearm blocks and chambering is kinda ridiculous. Why and how you do something, drilling techniques and counters, and sparring and hitting pads has worked MUCH better for me than doing kata. The closest thing I do to kata is a drill of a technique. But I'm actually hitting pads, or shoving my partner and throwing a roundhouse into the back of his knee...

So, yet again, I'm gonna plug Muay Thai here. But the one thing Karate has on MT is that they try to condition the knuckles for bare-knuckle fighting. Personally I'd like to see how hands are used differently without gloves, but honestly al I think it means is that you need to use parries more - that "shield" can get your hand bones smashed, so you nee to put it up more and take it on the forearms I suppose.

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

Freddy
7/10/2003 3:27pm,
The type of karate that is taught in North America in most part is bullshit. You go to Japan its considered like going to a boot camp. You dont just train a few nights a week. You train very hard. Its no joking matter over there its taken very seriously.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Choke
7/10/2003 5:11pm,
"Choke - we don't see that kind of smashy smashy karate. We see "mcdojos" and "soft" people as a result, and those that compete become kickboxers more or less."

I'm not blaming the public for thinking what it does about Karate styles. But it would be wrong for me to not speak up and stick up for my instructors who spend alot of time and effort training me - for free.

"Yes, all these hard kicks, hard punches, hard elbows, and hard knees are great, but the way most of them train (at least in the USA) SUCKS, if they even do the elbows and knees."

All those strikes are done during sparring. The only way to know how to apply strikes in reality against a moving/attacking/defending opponent is during kumite.

"And yes those huge swinging forearm blocks and chambering is kinda ridiculous."

I don't know what this means. The only Karate block I ever had a problem with is the downward block. That is just dumb. The hard blocking system in Karate are done with explosive speed and are meant to be a "striking" block. Those are meant for telegraphic, commited strikes. If a Karateka sees his opponent throwing jabs out and hitting in combos than he'll switch to a "sparring" mode and use zone blocking like a kickboxer.

"Why and how you do something, drilling techniques and counters, and sparring and hitting pads has worked MUCH better for me than doing kata."

Most Karate schools,McDojo or not, hit pads/heavy bags as well as kata. Kata is not a replacement for drills or sparring that is stupid! Noone in there right mind thinks that.

"The type of karate that is taught in North America in most part is bullshit."

I agree, however, my school isn't like that so there is no reason for me to remain silent. The statement "Karate mostly sucks in the States" is way more accurate than just saying "Karate sucks". However Karate without contact sparring and strenuous physical workouts is hardly Karate at all. It's like BJJ without rolling.




_______________________________________
Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!

FingerorMoon?
7/10/2003 8:21pm,
what is a scissor block ?

IndoChinese
7/10/2003 8:33pm,
what is often perceived as a chamber and block sequence is not that at all.

in fact the chamber, the moving of the hand toward the body is a block in itself.

in isshinryu, they use a hip chamber. pull the right fist back on the hip in the classic chamber and with a circular motion 'stack' the left fist on top of the right, then step out and block with the left arm, any basic outer block, followup with the right reverse punch.

my point of view is different.

first, the chamber and stack is a defense against a rear grabbing attack. the left arm 'wards', meaning it rounds the back to make you more difficult to encircle. and its movement path is natural for grabbing the wrist to counter a choke. the right hand delivers an elbow to the floating ribs.

second interpretation,

when the left hand is moving in to complete the chamber/stack, this is actually an inward block or a hook punch counter. then you deliver the right punch.

third interpretation,

from a natural position, you grab attacker by the crotch or belt and pull his hips towards you with your right hand(punch chamber). simoultaneously, you strike with a left hook punch, or use the left arm to bar his chest/neck to press his upper body back while you pull his lower body forward, and as he starts to fall, step in and deliver a reverse punch to the neck or jaw( to hasten your fall).

to be sure the 'basic' form has to modified with changes in footwork and timing for these various applications, but it is still all the same 'pattern' of movement. and show me the art that doesnt require variation in application from 'form' and i will eat my hat.

concerning the down block. here is the best 'interpretation' imo. it is a 'gunt', or limb destruction. using a backfist(knuckles) or hammerfist( these are dependant on the style, some use flat blocking and others use edge blocking), strike the kick of the opponent in sensitive areas like the ankle or knee area. striking ninety degrees to line of kick is a good basic way to do this technique, although a forward cutting '45' is better, at least for me. used this way it is a counter attack, not a block, by its standard definition.

if 'karate' blocks dont accomplish one of the following purposes, then they fall into the 'useless' category.

limb destruction- hit the limb so hard it is either damaged or the attacker fears to use it again for fear of a repeat limb destruct

centerline breaking- the block should disturb his balance and structure, it not destroy it completely

positioning- soft blocks use subtle controls of the centerline to set up strikes. often they will pull or draw you off balance as well.

the 'blocks' that suck are the ones that just 'bonk' your attackers limb, leaving his balance intact, and allowing him to retract in order to defend, or just continue through with his attack combination. this is generally coupled with far too long of a delay between the block and the punch.

you cant debunk entire styles( with some obvious exceptions) based on any group of practitioners. even if the 'system' as they practice it is flawed, it doesnt change the validity of the system. it is in how it is used.

blocks can be great weapons if used correctly, and karate is definately underrated. hell, i used to take it,and at the same time, often doubted its efficiency and usefulness. now i know better.

shotokan block...



peace.

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J-kid
7/10/2003 9:02pm,
I never said anything on karate before this thread.

My true thoughts on it. Its a mostly crappy martial art with flawed ideas on what will happen in a fight. Now there are some who make it work and i tip my hat to them. But most are just jokes doing useless high blocks and flying kicks. Considering that there are so many Karate schools, Like TKD schools gives me and most people this impression about it and i am sure somewhere it is probley studyed and used effectively.