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drunkenj
7/02/2003 4:41pm,
I dont know about anyone else, but i am sick of McDojos and even reputable gyms/dojos telling beginners and prospective customers that martial arts are for everyone. They frequently claim that the anyone, no matter what their natural athletic ability, can excel at MA. This is so not true, are we suddenly suppossed to throw away the laws of genetics. Natural physical ability makes a huge difference to how one will progress in MA. It is true that whilst there are certain MA that benefit certain body types, A short stocky guy might struggle at tkd but excell at judo for example. This does not change the fact that to perform at the highest level, one must be naturally athletic. The kid who was picked last for football, will struggle equally well in MA. Likewise the converse is true, Tyson would have been a killer no matter what sport he took up. MT Judo, Karate, he still would be at the highest level. Im not saying that those who aren't naturally athletic shouldn't train, of course you(We?, im not sure where i am) should. You will just have to train harder and longer and refuse to be dissolusioned if you do not progress as fast as you would like.
Sorry if the tone of this is a little agressive (im not trying to offend anyone) it is just reading the thread about aikido has got me a little vitriolic. For those who are not good physically, dont hide behind bullshido like aikido; do something good, and persevere at it.
This has come from a conversation in the pub between me, a training partner and our coach. My training partner asked why i was better, though we had been traimning the same length of time. My coach told him that it was because I was just more of a natural athlete, and could just use strength on him. He told him that he would have to train harder than me to get better than me. He is, and it is really working for him.
As a final note, look at the site regulars, they are lamost all 6'+ and 200lbs

MrMcFu
7/02/2003 4:55pm,
I think MA's have something to offer most people. But not everyone can be compete or even defend themselves with it. Some people just like sweating a bit and the workout. Although, I can't imagine not training hard and sparring, I realize my limitations and just enjoy the challenge of always fighting bigger opponents. 5'11 160 lbs.

http://www.zanshin-dojo.de

Dochter
7/02/2003 5:10pm,
There are many such folk in my school right now, aggravates me as I don't think the realize how much more work they'll need (work that I also had to put in). Overall I guess they just pay the bills and those of us quite serious aren't probably enough to do that.

--6' 215lbs <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> but certainly not naturally athletic.

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My single chopstick is bad at serving soup, cutting steaks and basting roasts and chickens. Besides that it owns.

kusa
7/02/2003 5:27pm,
the main requirement is perserverance, and hard trainin, if you want it enuff you can have your goal, but it aint gonna be easy!

SuperHappyLucky7
7/02/2003 5:31pm,
I totally agree. :)

I have a female cousin who has totally bought into this. She's about 16, 5'6, 120lbs and has taken 4+ years of Karate and figures she could easily take a large agressive man.

But I think this is symtomic of martial arts in general. The _vast_ majority of those that train are the 'wimps' of public school who got the crap kicked out of them by everyone. I've toured a number of schools here in Toronto and _universally_ 95% of the guys training are out of shape, tight, un-athletic talentless men.

The only ones that are any good (and this is not universal by any stretch) are the ones that are trying to teach them. For the most part they have some physical ability and have spent several years honing that.

I think the moral of the story is - if you're a ***** you're always gonna get fucked :) martial arts or not.

And since everyone is listing height/weight, I'm 6'2", 210 and in pretty good shape. I'm also able to effortlessly stomp anyone in my club (even those who've trained twice as long as I) except the chief instructor who can effortlessly stomp me :) But ya know what? even before training I always won my fights as well :)

SuperHappyLucky7
7/02/2003 5:34pm,
kusa posted before I hit the post button. I'm not agreeing with him, I'm agreeing with drunkenj.

kusa - I _personally_ know at least 3 guys who have trained hard for at least three years and still _suck_ :) - It'd not *just* sticking with it.

Deadpan Scientist
7/02/2003 6:20pm,
Everyone can get something out of MA, it might just not be the ability to fight.

BlackBeltNow
7/02/2003 7:08pm,
martial arts IS for everyone. how can u say its defying the laws of genetcs? we are animals. all animals fight. intraspecific ompetition is more common than inter. even squirrels fight. if you are too unfit to fihgt, you wouldve died a long time ago while the human species was evolving.
genetics only affect the higher levels. whether you will become the next mohommad ali or a matt hughes, or if a small girl can take on a large man, are genetic

Do Be Open-minded
Don't Be Gullible

Edited by - blackbeltnow on July 02 2003 19:14:03

BlackBeltNow
7/02/2003 7:10pm,
stuff like bodybuilding, is not for everyone. genetics can make u either gifted or a huge failure. there had been no evolutionary stress on being buff on a monogamous (as opposed to polygynous) species like humans, so thats why we enver evovled to be genetically designed for bodybuilding.

Do Be Open-minded
Don't Be Gullible

Phoenix
7/02/2003 7:17pm,
"Martial Arts are for everyone"

I don't think that statement should be taken too literally.

I think it simply implies that everyone can benefit in some way from the martial arts, but I don't think it means that everyone can 'excel' at them.

"Everybody knows...if the police have to chase you down, they're brining an ass kicking with them". - Chris Rock

SuperHappyLucky7
7/02/2003 8:06pm,
I'll agree that everyone can get 'something' out of MA. Hell, everyone can prolly get something out of synchonized swimming, and maybe even TKD :)

However, many people can't seem to get what they want out of MA, namely the ability to defend themselves from the 'classic attacker'. IE: someone _not_ like them - big, strong, fast, agressive.

I'd also expect that people spouting the 'anyone can become a deadly fighter with MA' is prolly one of those *****'s I was mentioning earlier ;)

A little poll: How many of you are aware of someone who is really effective with their art that was _not_ a naturally tough, agressive guy before he started training.

If you're being honest I think the number will be 0.

Phoenix
7/02/2003 8:31pm,
"Anyone who tries in a decent art should come out with increased fighting skills. Not everyone will be the next UFC champ though."

Osiris, I couldn't agree more.

Whatever fighting skills the average person learns will, 9 times out of 10, not be pretty, nor may they be able to pull it off properly, but it will increase their odds of staying alive, should they ever need to use them.

"Everybody knows...if the police have to chase you down, they're brining an ass kicking with them". - Chris Rock

gojuJKDdude
7/02/2003 8:32pm,
Everyone has the potential to excel at MA's to the extent of their potential. Not everyone is going to be a champion but everyone can benefit from it, and if they work hard at it they can be the best they can be (I know this sounds so fucking corny but just bear with me.) Who says you have to be over 6' 200 to be good anyway. Look at the masters from Japan, all are very lanky, short and scrawny but al still fantastic MA's. Look at the MT guys from thailand, most are also relatively small but I wouldnt want to fight any of them... yet!!

In response to your question lucky I was not particularly aggressive when I started MA's, although I am on the larger end of the spectrum (5'11 220 muscular build.) Im still not aggressive outside of my school but I have alot more confidence and know that if I need to I can beat the crap out of someone.

Dochter
7/02/2003 8:59pm,
BlackBeltNow,

While I could only barely dechiper what you were saying I would like to point out that there is little evidence that as a species we're monogamous, in fact both polygamous and polyandrous systems have shown up numerous times in human history. Monogamy is one possible mating system among many and its an area I doubt you'd find many evolutionary anthropolgists saying we were selected for.

Within animal behavior the whole monogamy structure is becoming increasingly broken down as well. Extrapair copulations are incredibly common for both sexes. In any case of sexual structure there is always an emphasis on physical fitness, of which bodybuilding is a rather extreme version of.

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My single chopstick is bad at serving soup, cutting steaks and basting roasts and chickens. Besides that it owns.

Mr. Nice Guy
7/02/2003 9:08pm,
The martial arts may be for everyone, but not everyone is for the martial arts...

Just look at Kungfoollss!

Jamoke
7/02/2003 9:32pm,
self defense, confidence building, character building, balance, coordination, eye hand coordination, self esteem, respect, discipline, self control, learning to interact with others, learning to participate in organized activities, better study habits, exercise, gaining a better range of motion by learning how to stretch properly, understanding how your body moves, gaining strength, countless mental benefits, making new friends, socializing with others, competing.

SHALL I GO ON!

it is for EVERYONE, because EVERYONE will benefit differently, and EVERBODY will learn and gain SOMETHING. EVERYBODY.

remember, EVERYBODY comes in different shapes and sizes, and EVERBODY has different ability levels.

"When attacked insult, and insult to kill"