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mikus
6/07/2003 5:51pm,
I posted this on another thread, but it wasn't answered and I'm under the impression that it wasn't seen...

Wastrel's post was:

"Well, if you catch him in a standing guillotine, don't worry about throwing knees, just "crank" the choke. There are two basic ways to apply the standing guillotine. in a real fight, bar the throat, don't worry about trying to choke off the carotid."


My post was:

"Cool, I was actually just about to start a thread asking about standing guillotines. What do you mean by "crank" it? When I wrestle around with a friend who has simple highschool wrestling experience and I catch him in a standing guillotine, he immediately goes for a single leg takedown. Usually I pull guard, but sometimes I just sink my body wait really low, and pull his head kinda up so it cranks his neck. But I still feel like I'm not doing it quite right. I think that if I did this against someone who knew that guillotine counter where they literally pick you up, I'd get thrown on my fucking back. Is there a counter to the counter for a standing guillotine, or is just pulling guard the best idea? I would tend to like to do a standing one if I got into a real fight, but in a one on one fight I don't mind pulling guard at all...

Also, why should you just bar the throat instead of getting the cartoid? It's hard for me to make my friends tap when I just bar the throat (but that very well could be because I'm afraid that I'm gonna damage their throat so I don't go very hard into it at all)."

He carries a gun.
THE Arnold Schwarzenegger.
A man with a plan.

The Wastrel
6/07/2003 5:54pm,
I don't understand how he goes for a single leg takedown if you have him in a guillotine. Bar the throat in a real fight because it will cause severe damage and possibly kill (I guess), without having to wait for the choke. I'm sorry actually, I'm still thinking of this given a certain professional context that doesn't apply to a public, normal fight. Bar the throat, but be careful.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."

mikus
6/07/2003 5:58pm,
"I'm sorry actually, I'm still thinking of this given a certain professional context that doesn't apply to a public, normal fight."

Hmm?

Anyways, if I don't sink it in fast enough he can grab a leg and take me down, but I suppose I'm not doing it right? Which I guess was the point of my post anyways...

thanks,
Mike

He carries a gun.
THE Arnold Schwarzenegger.
A man with a plan.

The Wastrel
6/07/2003 5:59pm,
Not doing it right. You're being too gentle. I have never lost a choke like that.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."

Vargas
6/07/2003 6:18pm,
Here's something that a lot of guys don't pick up about standing front chokes until they stop and think about it. To really 'crank' a standing front choke, you need to get your hips into the guy and arch your back. Sure, you might wind up on your back, but you'll still have that front choke in tight and the fight will be over fairly soon. If you don't want to wind up landing on your back, though (you are fighting on a really hard surface, for example), you'll have to sprawl. To sprawl, you have to pop your hips AWAY from your opponent, which takes away a lot of the pressure from a front choke. Therefore, to really crank a front choke AND avoid a takedown can be a paradoxical kind of thing. In one case, you need your hips against the guy. In the other, you need your hips as far away from him as possible. It all depends on the situation at the time.

Personally, I would rather have the good sprawl than the standing front choke. I'd rather avoid winding up on my back and try to get the guy's back or throw some knees onto the top of his head from the sprawl. Also, if you get your hips into the guy while trying to crank the front choke, the guy may grab your nuts pretty hard if you're not careful. It just depends how much confidence you have in your front choke versus your sprawl defense.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

The Wastrel
6/07/2003 6:20pm,
I was just talking about that with Deus.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."

mikus
6/07/2003 6:23pm,
Here's something that a lot of guys don't pick up about standing front chokes until they stop and think about it. To really 'crank' a standing front choke, you need to get your hips into the guy and arch your back. Sure, you might wind up on your back, but you'll still have that front choke in tight and the fight will be over fairly soon. If you don't want to wind up landing on your back, though (you are fighting on a really hard surface, for example), you'll have to sprawl. To sprawl, you have to pop your hips AWAY from your opponent, which takes away a lot of the pressure from a front choke. Therefore, to really crank a front choke AND avoid a takedown can be a paradoxical kind of thing. In one case, you need your hips against the guy. In the other, you need your hips as far away from him as possible. It all depends on the situation at the time.

AHHH cool. That's exactly the problem that I was running into. Thanks.

He carries a gun.
THE Arnold Schwarzenegger.
A man with a plan.

Vargas
6/07/2003 7:15pm,
De nada, just glad to help out :)

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

MrMcFu
6/07/2003 7:27pm,
We had a GJJ black belt by the name of Junior Santos in town for a seminar the last two days. Anyway, he showed a Vale Tudo move (which I am sure some of you know) that was pretty sweet which could help you. I will try and break it down.

1. Opponent shoots in and starts to get "guillotined" by my right arm.

2. However, instead of securing it with my left and cranking, I push his right arm with my left arm and grab it with my right hand.

3. I tuck in my head and plant my left hand as I roll in the direction of my left hand. I aid this by passing my right foot between my planted left hand and my left leg.

4. I switch my hands so now my left is controlling his right (this frees up the right hand to strike after the roll).

5. After the roll is completed, I then do the old knee in stomach, pound with the right hand while controlling with the left.

I hope that was understandable. Try it with a partner and it perhaps it will be clearer. Also, does anyone know if this has a name? I have never seen it before.

Sifu Emin - Did you see that?
Me - (gasping) No, but I can't breathe yet.

Omar
6/07/2003 7:50pm,
Guillitine is one the like 3 submissions I can do. Vargas hit the nail on the head in my exp. EVery time I've ever pulled a guillitine it was on my way down.He grabs one leg? Fine. Just wrap the other one around his waist and sit down. Be patient it's almost over. You could never get a guillitine from guard but pulling guard when you already have a guillitine it just gives you fantastic leverage to 'crank it'.

BAH ! Puny Humans !

Choke
6/07/2003 8:07pm,
I always found a standing guillotine to be a weak technique to end a fight especially if someone knows a few counters to it.

_______________________________________
Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!

Kail
6/07/2003 10:43pm,
Getting tight body to body helps tighten up the choke, back arch as well. Had it suggested, and tried it, to turn a little so your getting a lateral crank on the neck as well. Be sure to turn so they are going to the outside of your body and it will lock up really well. Meaning, if you've got the choke in with your right arm, step back with the left foot and crank hard. Don't know if anyone has tried this, but it seems to increase the effectiveness of the standing guillotine for me. If they somehow managed to get a single, like Omar said, wrap the other one around them and sit, they won't last too long.

The Wastrel
6/07/2003 10:52pm,
Sorry I didn't have time to help more earlier. I was on campus, in a hurry, and trying to deal with another thread.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."

The Wastrel
6/07/2003 10:53pm,
You should always listen to Vargas over pretty much anyone anyway.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."

DRD
6/07/2003 11:24pm,
I would like to say, "obvious as it may be to some"
That when you are in a position to execute this technique, the carotid and trachea will not be in the most danger. If we are speaking of truly cranking, the cervicle column is in great danger and herniation is a real possibility.

Please be very careful with this move and even being in the presence of an experienced instructor may not be sufficient because of the sudden explosive application.

With that said and the technique explained very well above, I would only add that if you have done something that will position the attacker for you to apply the technique, he is already in a bent over position to an extent.

While he is being positioned for the application, a strong forearm across the back of his shoulders will sink him even lower and your wrap arm should be deeply sunk at this point, and you will be in such a strong superior position that cranking and arching will be at a minimun need.

You will be in such a superior control position that if you sense for real that you are in danger of being picked up or leveraged to the ground in anyway, you can do massive damage to the neck at that point by applying upward and away force.

This move can be a lifesaver, and a lifetaker. It is always to be considered to be in the lethal catagory, even or maybe because it is being applied by non experts. Non experts to me being all of us when using this technique.

DRD

Greese
6/08/2003 2:00am,
For more fun, let's assume he you have your opponent on your right side... Pop out to your left, (while keeping the hold) put your right leg on his left leg. Fall back and push on his leg and role backwards. You will then have a guillotine in the mount.