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Miguksaram
6/03/2003 12:54pm,
Jamoke once said that we were not overseers of the martial arts. I agree. We really can't judge who is McDojo and who is not simply by looking at a website. The last thread about American Karate Center and the Cooks got me thinking. Sam B did some great work in asking questions and spurring a good thread about creditentials and such. We actually put away, for the most part, our prejudice about style and got to nitty gritty of the claims themselves.

There is a website out there that is used to help weed out people caliming to be Navy SEALS. It is a great site. The contact there has connections to the SEALs and can quickly find out if a person is, was or never was a SEAL. We have that same capability here. There are many of us who belong to associations or have connections to people who can find out status of most instructors claims. If done right, we could help place people in legitimate schools.

So my proposal is this, and you can laugh about it later or help fire up some other ideas, we ask if Phrost can devise an area where we can place schools that are in question. Depending on the style, we can have some of the individuals, who are already on this board and are in the same style, do some info searching on the school and the instructor. (Example: Guy wants to join a TKD school and instructor calims that he is 8th dan WTF. One of the TKD guys on the board can do some background checking and say Yes he is legit or no he doesn't check out.) It's a weak example but I think you get the idea. Thoughs on this?

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html

Kuroneko
6/03/2003 1:06pm,
In the example of the Cooks we got a nice presentation of their character and like I said in the other thread, their character would put me off from joining their school...
Checking an official Dan is black and white. But other claims are harder to check. Like the Demaria dude's claim of being the adopted son of a great grandmaster...
Or figuring out whether a teacher is worth his salt despite his tons of rankings...

What would be helpful is a framework, by which to judge schools. (Probably best to do that AFTER a school has been thoroughly chewed on and spit out in the forum thread). So if someone wants to learn about the school on bullshido, he/she doesn't have to read the whole thread. And it would make it comparable.
Some items could be ranked 1-10 (web-appearance, first impressions, etc. This could be done in a rating type format like it is done for the articles), other items on the framework could have short comments or just data (like number of students, locations, instructors, ...)




______________
I've gone to find myself. If I'm not back before I return, leave me there.

m4949
6/03/2003 1:21pm,
I dig this idea.

Your skills are EXTRAordinary; You have our Gratitude.

Greese
6/03/2003 1:27pm,
I agree. I also think it would be good to send people to schools in their area to check them out and rate them. I would love to have some sort of database avaliable to people.

Mercurius
6/03/2003 1:33pm,
I liked this idea when I had it. *ducks* No, seriously, it's something I still think we need to do.

m4949
6/03/2003 1:35pm,
Agreed. I'l be happy to check out schools where I live. Hell, I have been checking out schools where I live for myself anyway.

Your skills are EXTRAordinary; You have our Gratitude.

matzahbal
6/03/2003 2:08pm,
miguksaram, I agree with your post, but you also have to look at some people out there that have websites that point to nothing but bullshido/mcdojo with out doing much.

While we can't conclude that a school is 100% mcdojo because of the site, we can all agree about some red flags that make you scratch your head to some that make you fall out of your chair laughing.

With the "schools in question" area there should be some questions to ask derived from "red flags" on their webpage, that way things that would normally stop a person from visiting or calling that school can either be upheld or dismissed.

e.g. A school has an area on their styles history, but left out a major key player because of some bad blood or legal dispute. A person somewhat familiar with the system might see it has dishonorable and messed up and skip a perfectly good school. OR Some nut job claims to be hold rank in so many systems, but for some reason only has a certificate he made himself calling himself a master.


"But some apes they gotta go, so we kill the ones we don't know" - 'Ape shall never kill Ape' by The Vandals

Jamoke
6/03/2003 2:14pm,
matz, would you be interested in sharing with us where you study martial arts, and would you be willing to post your schools web site, so then we may tear it apart and look for these RED flags!

i am certain by the way your post sounds, you would be delighted to do that for us.


"When attacked insult, and insult to kill"

The Wastrel
6/03/2003 2:15pm,
I think only certain people should be allowed/encouraged to do this. They would have to be very public about their association.

BTW: There are aesthetic arguments, over advertising/marketing etc. These are entirely beyond reproach.

Then there are accusations of fraud. This is entirely different.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."

Jamoke
6/03/2003 2:21pm,
and dont ask me to do the same, i'm not on here saying anything good/bad about anybodys web site. i just figured seeing you have made an active statement on the subject you would share my request with everyone on this forum.

i am certain you study under someone, yes. then post it!

"When attacked insult, and insult to kill"

Miguksaram
6/03/2003 2:34pm,
"While we can't conclude that a school is 100% mcdojo because of the site, we can all agree about some red flags that make you scratch your head to some that make you fall out of your chair laughing."

True. The hardest part is trying to be unbiased. In other words, if you are a hardcore traditionalist and you see a school that teachese traditionally but with rainbow of uniforms, you may think "Oh yeah McDojo" when if fact they may be a hard school. A MMA stylist may think a TMA stylist is total bs. So those willing to participate need to keep that in mind.

"With the "schools in question" area there should be some questions to ask derived from "red flags" on their webpage, that way things that would normally stop a person from visiting or calling that school can either be upheld or dismissed."

I think the main thing to look for in these schools are the claims the instructors make. Vesions of history will differ from person to person, due to politics. However, if you run into a school that says something like my art is 2000 years old taught by blind monks...then we need to investigate.


Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html

matzahbal
6/03/2003 3:12pm,
Jamoke, I would love to post the webpage of our school, but considering we don't have a webpage I can't.

BUT there is a review of my school somewhere in this great forum posted by FatalityDragon who came down to my school to try it out, even though he got there with 15 minutes left in class, he did talk to my instructor for 45 minutes.

Perhaps my term "red flag" had a negative conotation to it that I didn't realize till now. I'll carefully word my posts next time.

BUT on the other hand, I'm pretty sure you'll be more than tickled pink to share your schools webpage with us. It's a Shaolin Kempo scool, right?

"But some apes they gotta go, so we kill the ones we don't know" - 'Ape shall never kill Ape' by The Vandals

cyrijl
6/03/2003 3:19pm,
When i find and point out any websites, it is usually because they are so aesthetic displeasing that they seem to intimate something is wrong. (Either w/ the MA or w/ the people running it).

Dragons, badly drawn animated gifs...

------------------------------------------------
I'm half puerto rican and i know judo so you betta run
judo know if i got a knife
and judo know if i got a gun

Jamoke
6/03/2003 3:44pm,
matz, i wouldn't put much value in anything "fatalvision" has to say about anything. so you can take that as a compliment or an insult. frankly i couldn't give a shitt how you take it.

but, you sound like a pretty smart guy, why dont you develope a site for your school. if not, why dont you post the name and address of the school and let the members of this forum do the checking for you. i myself would call and ask questions, and then post my report on this forum for everybody to read.

but please, i would not base the report of "fatalvision" on anything, let alone a martial arts school "report card".

he wasted 45 minutes of your poor instructors time is what he did.


"When attacked insult, and insult to kill"

Jamoke
6/03/2003 3:46pm,
post the name and address of your school and i will post one where i study.

"When attacked insult, and insult to kill"

matzahbal
6/03/2003 4:15pm,
I take it as a compliment that he took my inventation to come down and try out my school and post what he thought of it. Which is pretty much the point of this thread. You giving a **** about what he thinks and who he is really doesn't matter to me.

We just moved to a new location, also we are currently without an official name since my instructor is taking time away from his association for various reasons. I'm not sure of the address, it's on Arville, nearest cross street is on Trop (basicly if you were to take the 15 to Trop and make a left (going west), make a right on Arville and it's right there on your left in the stripmall, on the right side. Class meets Tues and Thurs at 7pm to 9pm or whenever you wanna go home. Oh yeah, the style is Wing Chun and it's in Las Vegas, NV.

"But some apes they gotta go, so we kill the ones we don't know" - 'Ape shall never kill Ape' by The Vandals

Edited by - matzahbal on June 03 2003 16:16:18