View Full Version : AMOK! - Knife Fighting Goodness or Cult?

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7/13/2006 12:44am,
One day tribal leader training ?

do u actually need knife or blade training to be a threat ? - put some blades/knives into a non-trained teenager or kids hands, still a danger to reckon with ?

Im not suggesting someone untrained with a knife is no threat. I am simply pointing out that if one is going to teach a skill, they should have a strong level of skill in that subject.

Sure, any bozo off the street with a rifle is dangerous, but how would you feel as a soldier if your instructors on basic training only had one day of military training?
Or being taught boxing by a guy with only one day training?
This is more the type of thing I am getting at.

7/13/2006 4:01am,
point to consider in regards to weapon-
takes shorter time to be good at it

in terms of training time - consider this in general
-empty hands-longer training time
-blunt weapon-like fma shorter than above
-edge weapon-like fma even shorter than above
-projectile-even shorter than above
-firearms- u bet shortest time to train to be a real threat

*someone with one day training in firearms will have enough skill to be a big threat even u have the same equivalent.

as i can recall massad f ayoob who teaches LE/military/Civilian combat handgun do conduct a one day (8 hours) course for combat handgun.

This covers safe speed draw and holstering, proper operation of double action revolver, double or single action semi-automatic pistol, combat speed reloading with both. Student learns the Weaver, Chapman and Isosceles Turret two-hand techniques, "position shooting" such as "Stressfire Kneeling", and "Stressfire Star", and how to focus on target instead of sight picture with "stress point index", among many other pointers.

Ideal for the shooter with no previous hands-on training OR for the experienced instructor seeking techniques to streamline his own training procedures.

so do frontsights - firearm training institute syllabus being of
basics of gunhandling and marksmanship followed by malfunction clearances, reloads, and very challenging shooting drills such as Failure to Stop, multiple targets, man-against-man competition, and tactical simulators.

now for those who have fire arm experience, looking at the materials covered & someone like massad-participants would end up better handgunners than b4.

likelihood from handgunners experience, that one day training will bring a stronger skill set than b4.

If that someone is really blurr / slow learner, with the knowledge, training methods gain, they have something really valuable to take home to further hone their skill. in no time, i rather stay far far away from those folks.

as for some one like tom sotis-his credibility is quite a list but no one knows for sure what is taught in that one day training. do you ?

i wouldn't say for sure that people with one day training will not come out with stronger skill set than before. isn't this also relative to that someone's experience or background ? or the teacher's training methods ?

on one hand, in general i agree with colonelpong if its general martial arts like Tae Kwon Do, HapKido, BJJ etc. but on the other hand-i wouldnt dare say as its specific to the just the knife ?

besides-in general-in military-dun they hired external martial arts instructor for short stint period-anywhere from one day to a week only. the rest of the time-they are training on their own with the materials taught ? what is the difference here than if compared ?

just look at the korea military @dmz martiala arts/combative training - one day to a week or even the philippines marine corps taught by Leo Gaje - around a few days and not even full 8 hours.

guess its all relative - the proof of the pie lies in its being eaten
hope someone from this forum take up that 1 day training then we check out with him-is it like the firearms one day training

i take the combat handgun anyday than anything- anyone for a Glock ? LOL

7/13/2006 4:11am,
What deos that mean?

7/13/2006 5:43am,

it means as u go up the 'weapon chains', the training time goes down even shorter ...

ie if u r a genious and only take 3 years to be as good as the Gracies in BJJ-it probably only takes < 3 hours to learn how to blow up someone with a mortar bomb ... LOL :XXmonkey:

7/13/2006 5:38pm,
You cant knife someone in a fist fight. Well you can...but. They should just lern to fight. Use of lethal-force defence against an unarmed assailant may be legally acceptable if disparity of force exists; e.g. multiple attackers, a trained attacker, significant disparity in size and strength (e.g. a 120kg methamphetamine-addled rapist vs. a 45kg woman). YMMV depending upon your local jurisdiction, and IANAL.

Which brings me to my second point - weapons are great equalizers. There have been many cases of weaker, relatively untrained fighers armed with blade weapons defeating unarmed (or even armed) attackers who were faster and stronger than them.

"lerning" to fight includes being proficient at both armed and unarmed combat. And in some cases (where people are old and / or feeble, or just very small and weak) armed self-defense is a more sensible option. Should an 80 year old with arthritis use his fists against a 20 year old in peak physical condition ... or should he use a knife or better yet, a pistol?

This also ties back to my multiple-weapon post. If you're going to go armed, you'll be doing yourself a favour by carrying a couple of weapons, which represent multiple points on the "lethal force" spectrum. A pistol or a knife isn't the answer to every physical encounter - just as fists aren't either.

7/13/2006 8:15pm,
duncan-YMMV&IANAL? want spell it out ?

Obi1-Dogbrothers wannabe
-did a search on bullshido-checkout-
I have had no direct training with the AMOK group, however, both Chad Getz (of Full Contact Hawaii) and Dogzilla (head of the Hawaii Dog Brothers clan) speak very highly of their experiences with the AMOK group, and I trust their opinions. From what I understand, the strength of the AMOK group lies not in the extensive amount of techniques, but their absolute proficiency with the basics...and continual drilling/sparring/fighting against non-compliant training partners. Something akin to the limited, but technically sound, tools of Muay Thai.

Again, no direct experience, just what people I trust completely have said.

Aloha, Poi
] :chewy:

shudnt they be accusing them of copyingDogbrothers or FullContact if thats the case ?

is some ppl here starting a hate crime here on a group we know nuthin off ? :wbossman

Matt Bernius
7/13/2006 8:29pm,
is some ppl here starting a hate crime here on a group we know nuthin off ?That (sadly) happens quite a bit here. You'll get used to it.

Great find btw. Poi knows what he's talking about, so I'll go with his word. Like I said, if the US rep's bio is right, then he had solid, solid training.

- Matt

7/14/2006 3:34am,
anyone can use a knife against an unarmed attacker. Anyone can learn to use a knife against an unarmed attacker better with a little practice.

but to learn to use a knife against a knife, or a knife against someone trained to deal with one, well that takes a lot longer.

7/14/2006 4:10am,
knife against knife always seemed stupid to me..when will that ever happen ?

I'm a great believer in that Knife FIGHTs only exist in dojos, in the street someone produces a knife guts the guy and disapears.

If both people have knifes and slash at one another it becomes a duel and you probably go to jail whatever the outcome.

7/14/2006 6:02am,
knife against knife always seemed stupid to me..when will that ever happen ? Where I live, quite often.

I'm a great believer in that Knife FIGHTs only exist in dojos, in the street someone produces a knife guts the guy and disapears. that does happen, usually as an assasination. There's no way to effectively defend against an attack you don't see coming.

7/14/2006 6:14am,
# (amok) ([schwa]-mok˘) [Malay “furious attack”] a culture-specific syndrome first reported in the Malay people, almost always male, consisting of a sudden outburst of indiscriminate aggressive or homicidal fury provoked by a perceived slight or insult or possibly unprovoked (running amuck). Spelled also amuck.

also, everytime there is a knife thread, the most retarded **** is said by people who don't have a clue. i also don't have a clue, so i won't spread my bs here, but please stop doing that...

7/14/2006 6:24am,

read steve's post

War Wizard
7/14/2006 10:31am,
knife against knife always seemed stupid to me..when will that ever happen ?

I'm a great believer in that Knife FIGHTs only exist in dojos, in the street someone produces a knife guts the guy and disapears.

If both people have knifes and slash at one another it becomes a duel and you probably go to jail whatever the outcome.

Never been to east Tennessee I gather? Bar brawls and actual knife fights are pretty common in certain areas (knives more prominent in "ghetto" sections, while bar brawls occur whenever two or more rednecks are in a room together).

Bluto Blutarsky
7/14/2006 3:47pm,
I actually took a seminar with this guy many years ago. What he spoke about seemed legit. The drills were simplistic and we did practice and spar with them (not with real knives obviously).

He stated that his approach to teaching and combat was that you should focus on the most common situations and attacks. If 80% of the people do x, then shouldn't you learn to train against x before you train against z because z is only 2% likely to occur?

He did present the seminar as an overview and not as a comprehensive "make you a knife fighter in 3 or 4 hours- I forgot how long the seminar was"

I can't speak on the structure of amok but I do know that the techniques taught and knife fighting in general seemed a very natural and easy to pick up thing. It seemed a lot like boxing in that respect where you could learn what all the basics are in a very small period of time, but need to learn how and when to use them and you could spend a lifetime trying to improve them.

He also stressed the danger of the knife and that even an inexperienced knife fighter is a deadly danger to a very experienced one because of the unpredictability of the weapon.

I never pursued knife fighting, nor did I have the desire to walk around and use a knife so I didn't really bother to check into the group much deeper.

7/14/2006 6:22pm,
I'm not familiar with the AMOK! group. I'll second that Gaje has a solid reputation.

Knife is a tough one for me. It is just so simple in some ways that any idiot who's ever chopped carrots could be deadly if he just makes a quick, aggressive attack. Even if you train knife regularly, going against an idiot like this is still quite risky.

Some of my other pet peeves about knife training is that knife vs. knife is not too likely to happen for most of us, yet is a good training tool if done correctly. The problem is that many people don't train knife correctly. Fancy dueling in which people slash each other and then dive out is very common. But most people will never get in a knife duel. And if I did get in a knife on knife fight, I'd try to kill my opponent as efficiently as possible. Gut them. Not slash them on the forearms, cheering "Tee heee! I scored!"

More commonly, people will be defending against a knife, and if the attacker is just fucking with them at long range, slashing and retreating, then there is definitely space to run the **** away. Running away is the best option here.

Or, someone may be in a life or death situation vs. multiple attackers, other weapons, etc., and they have a knife which they are forced to draw In this case, once again you want to kill your opponent as quickly as possible. Not to be dramatic, but it is kill or be killed.

I just hate the groups that just **** around with silly dueling, trying to be all macho. A knife is just a blue-collar tool for killing an opponent. Training should reflect this.

7/17/2006 7:38pm,
Well, sounds like a legit group with some odd LARP-like tendencies. Damn sure I will accept any recommendation from the Dog Bros as evidence of being legit.