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eyebeams
6/07/2006 9:11am,
So, here's where I'm coming from:

I've met pretty skilled exponents of both Wing Chun and Bujinkan stuff, but the contexts in which I've done both have been similar enough to note. I've crossed hands with a few Wing Chun guys who were under Brian Lewadny and some BBTers under Court Elliot.

The main thing in both cases is that a lot of practitioners were really variable in terms of their quality but there were a few who stood out, either as instructors or as students.

In Court Elliot's case, I actually witnessed him deal with someone who came into the school and called him out. He handily pinned and submitted the guy. On the other hand, some of his students were talkers and compliance junkies. With the 'chunners, *most* of them were talkers, but a few (usually those with outside MA experience) could make their stuff work pretty well.

This brings me to what I see as a common problem in the cultures of both arts. WC and BBT are inclusive. Many schools seem to be happy to give people skill based on what they put into it without even leading by example.

Now I don't really mind what people do with their training. It's more important to me practice properly myself and surround myself with people who are willing to do it than to worry about everybody in the "family." But there *do* need to be positive examples out there. So where does that put these two arts? Like I said, I've seen decent practitioners, but they are accorded almost no prestige or comment in their systems. What should they do?

1) Wing Chun is hampered by the politics and -- I **** you not -- the bastardized romanizations used by exponents. When you need 3-4 different search strings to look up examples of an art, that's a problem for anyone who wants to see live training.

2) BBT seems to be hampered by the active interference of some of its high-level practitioners. Hatsumi's an old man who's probably earned the right to do as much compliant "play" as he wants, but his cultists are actively destroying students' potential.

Shinbushi's school has a sparsely populated "taijutsu alive" locator on his site and that looks like a good start, but there aren't any clips to show what it actually looks like. I found that kind of disappointing. WC sites keep showcasing chi sao play.

So I guess what I'm saying is that it should be in the interests of practitioners of both to do the following:

A) Gather under a common umbrella based on how you train. I fired up Google and looked for full-contact WC references and they're there, but they are so scattered and poorly maintained that it would be a challenge to present any comprehensive examples of live training at all. In BBT's case, expanding on Shinbushi's efforst and giving it its own site, brand and opportunities or communication would be a great thing to see.

B) Show what the delivery system is capable of live. WC videos are 99% Chi Sao. BBT is 99% compliant kata performance and of that, 75% of it is with an extremely weak uke.

Give each art's live-training advocates a site, a forum and a clips archive and the good exponents of those arts would really step into the forefront. So how about it?

WhiteShark
6/07/2006 9:14am,
ROFL you said "cross hands". TeeHee

plasma
6/07/2006 9:39am,
congrats on not adding anything new. One day I will write Fucking essay on why the Bujinkan Sucks, hell I'll even go why they don't do the Ryu-ha they claim.

Shuma-Gorath
6/07/2006 9:44am,
1) Wing Chun is hampered by the politics and -- I **** you not -- the bastardized romanizations used by exponents. When you need 3-4 different search strings to look up examples of an art, that's a problem for anyone who wants to see live training.
Unless all good wing chun is done under one spelling then this is irrelevant.

eyebeams
6/07/2006 9:47am,
Unless all good wing chun is done under one spelling then this is irrelevant.

Why is this?

eyebeams
6/07/2006 9:49am,
congrats on not adding anything new. One day I will write Fucking essay on why the Bujinkan Sucks, hell I'll even go why they don't do the Ryu-ha they claim.

I hope your command of English improves in the interim, as given by both the phrase "writing Fucking essay," and the fact that you did not apparently read the whole thing, which is not about those arts sucking at all.

Shuma-Gorath
6/07/2006 9:52am,
Why is this?
The search string argument itself is irrelevant to begin with; most search engines let you OR the terms together anyway. But if I search for "wing chun" and don't find anything good then I have no reason to believe "ving tsun" will yield significantly different results, given prior knowledge that they are not two different things.

shinbushi
6/07/2006 10:16am,
So, here's where I'm coming from:



Shinbushi's school has a sparsely populated "taijutsu alive" locator on his site and that looks like a good start, but there aren't any clips to show what it actually looks like. I found that kind of disappointing. WC sites keep showcasing chi sao play.
Maybe because I want people who are interested to come by and try a class. :icon_wink
Actually as I want to do a DVD for the taijutsu community like what SBG did for JKD with their 1st tape, I need to get sparring footage. When I get some taped I will put it on youtube and google, and I want Bullshido feedback.
I am currently getting in shape( Road work and bad) for my TBA level one test so that is a priority. Plus with the new gym I am still getting it built out. The only vid I currently have is from when we 1st switched over to aliveness and tey are both low Kyus so looking back it is bad.
I was disappointed that of all the dojos I invited to join (10 in all) only the one's I listed.

eyebeams
6/07/2006 10:28am,
The search string argument itself is irrelevant to begin with; most search engines let you OR the terms together anyway. But if I search for "wing chun" and don't find anything good then I have no reason to believe "ving tsun" will yield significantly different results, given prior knowledge that they are not two different things.

Well, you're not particularly inclined to try, are you?

plasma
6/07/2006 10:34am,
I hope your command of English improves in the interim, as given by both the phrase "writing Fucking essay," and the fact that did not apparently read the whole thing, which is not about those arts sucking at all.


My english sucks, and typing with one hand is making it worse :(

eyebeams
6/07/2006 10:41am,
The only vid I currently have is from when we 1st switched over to aliveness and tey are both low Kyus so looking back it is bad.
I was disappointed that of all the dojos I invited to join (10 in all) only the one's I listed.

One thing I'd like to see more of all around in any clips is an an indication of how long the students have been around.

Shuma-Gorath
6/07/2006 10:42am,
Well, you're not particularly inclined to try, are you?
No, but I also wasn't the one complaining about it.

Tom Kagan
6/07/2006 10:43am,
Well, you're not particularly inclined to try, are you?


I have.

Fighting Cephalopod
6/07/2006 10:52am,
Well, you're not particularly inclined to try, are you?

The preponderance of evidence is that Wing Chun sucks. If someone is interested in claiming otherwise, I would say the burden of proof is on them, not us. People claiming Wing Chun sucks can point to an awful lot of video that supports their point very easily. Until people claiming Wing Chun is good and useful can point to ANY video supporting their point, I suggest they forego argument.

eyebeams
6/07/2006 10:59am,
The preponderance of evidence is that Wing Chun sucks. If someone is interested in claiming otherwise, I would say the burden of proof is on them, not us. People claiming Wing Chun sucks can point to an awful lot of video that supports their point very easily. Until people claiming Wing Chun is good and useful can point to ANY video supporting their point, I suggest they forego argument.

As "evidence," actually means "stuff on the internet," in most discussions here, my point stands. I have mixed feelings about Wing Chun after meeting practitioners, but that's not really transferrable to broad discussion.

Shuma-Gorath
6/07/2006 12:04pm,
As "evidence," actually means "stuff on the internet," in most discussions here, my point stands. I have mixed feelings about Wing Chun after meeting practitioners, but that's not really transferrable to broad discussion.
I can find positive examples of other arts on the internet. Is wing chun just unable to use a computer?