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patfromlogan
5/17/2003 10:07am,
My daughter (shodan karateka) has come to the realization, that no matter how hard she works out, the better male bb's in her school will always be able to take her out. Applying this insight to self defense has led her to want to aquire knives and learn blade techniques. (I know most of you people don't have children yet, but if you have a girl child, get her in ma early. More than just techniques is the value learned in ma's of "It's my body, it's my space, back off, and **** off" - I don't think date rape is on the horizon)

I was reading the current "What's your take on kerambits?" thread and realized that I might be able to save a lot of time by just asking if I could get some advice on buying and training with blades. She was thinking of a belt knife, and a back of neck/shoulder holster. The one belt knife we found on the web was over $250. That is pretty high for our budget.

Sam Browning
5/17/2003 11:06am,
I'll go look up some information on training, but $250 is outragous for a fixed blade, especially when the top line K-bars are under $130 and you can get really good folding knifes from smith and wesson and cold steel for under $70.

Anytime you carry a knife for self defence that is better constructed then a kitchen knife you are way ahead of the game, since it is with such poorly constructed weapons that the majority of people are stabbed to death in this country.

the real question is fixed blade or folder, and there are arguments for both, the fixed blade is faster to deploy because it does not have to be opened while a folded blade is more convenant to carry and with a clip is easy to place unnoticed in your pocket. i prefer the folder myself because it is just easier to carry and if you don't have the knife with you it doesn't do you much good. I'll write back later.

deus ex machina
5/17/2003 2:11pm,
pat,
PM sent.

$250 is not outrageous for a fixed blade. I would pay twice that, or even three times that for blades from certin custom makers. And per folding knives, there are many different factors involved in "rating" a folding knife. What steel is the blade? Is it a framelock, Axis lock, linerlock, lockback, etc? What blade type is it? Wharncliffe, American tanto, spear point, clip point,etc. In the end, it's all about what you're willing to pay. This being a consumer economy, we're lucky to have high quality production knives that are relatively cheap. Likewise, we have knives that are infinitely better than any production piece for considerably more money.

Pat, if your daughter is going to carry a knife solely for self-defense purposes, then I would recommend fixed blade knives.

~
danny

"All this talk about 'newbies' is making me a little nervous. You guys don't have any sort of secret hazing initiation involving wooden paddles and me screaming 'Thank you sir, may I have another?!' do you?"

Sam Browning
5/17/2003 7:28pm,
Hi my name is Harold Ellis and I am a friend of Samual Browning who is guesting with his permission.

There are a lot of good folers out there. Emerson has a production line (vs. custom) that is high quality for $100-150. The key to any folding knife is the locking system. Cheep folders tend to fold onto one's fingers. I have heard great things about Cold Steel, but all the fixed blade I have ownd were camping knives for chopping wood. James Ketting of Comtec fame, has a favrite fixed blade, but I forget its name. I saw it once in a catalog, but it was not cheep.

Sam Browning
5/17/2003 7:53pm,
Perhaps I should have been more precise by saying if you are not interested in buying a knife that is custom made by a knife maker, or something that is of limited quantity and a collector item(like some of the Randell knives) $250 is outragous.

There are people out there who pay hundreds of dollars for certain knives that are no longer in production but the bottom line is if your daughter is not using the knife as an Air Force survival instructor every day it does not have to be perfect, just of good quality.

knife people love to discuss the merits of various tip configurations, tanto verses clip point, ect but as long as the knife is of reasonable quality, such differences are a matter of preference which will probably not affect the outcome of a self defense situation as compared to the skill level of the person using the blade.

In folding knives which are called "tactical folders" the big trend is to use a liner lock to prevent "foldback". I also know that a lot is made of a particular "rockwell" hardness of a blade (there is another standard I am forgetting) but as long as the knife is made by a reputable maker, the steel will probably be of decent quality. Hint, do not buy through the Bud K catalogue if you do not know what you are doing.

If your daughter decides to buy a fixed blade knife the other question is what is the legal limit for such blades in your state? Since she is a woman she may not get busted for such an violation if the police were to somehow find a blade on her during a search but its something to think about.

Gongolongo
5/17/2003 9:15pm,
Maybe you should just suggest she marry a man who can take care of her. Then she can stay home and cook where it's safe.

Gongolongo
5/17/2003 9:34pm,
God, what a bunch of bullshit this discussion is. If you have the determination and conviction to really stab someone and stab them well, any old knife will work. Hell, a screwdriver is an even better weapon and they cost 5 bucks.



Edited by - Gongolongo on May 17 2003 21:35:03

Hiji kime
5/17/2003 9:52pm,
Personally, I don't see any problems with spending 150 bucks on a good knife. It'll be sturdier and will last longer (as long as you don't get careless and misplace it). But my current cash flow situation prevents me from experiencing the fine points of a $250 knife. LOL

Emersons are very nice. Probably the best tactical folders on the market today. :)

A carry two knives alternately. One is a 4" balisong (illegal in my country but I'll take my chances) and a 4" blade neck knive (tanto tip) which I carry as a neck knife. The balisong is a great folder but I would only recommend it if you have experience drawing and opening it coz it can be tricky. The advantage is that balisongs are also great palm sticks and can be very effective even in the closed position.

But aside from getting the right knife, you'll need some proper training. The Filipino Martial Arts are quite well known for bladed weapons skills but there are other arts that also teach knife techniques so shop around.

deus ex machina
5/17/2003 10:04pm,
Eh, Emerson's are over-rated. =T Definitely not the best tactical folder on the market.

~
danny

"All this talk about 'newbies' is making me a little nervous. You guys don't have any sort of secret hazing initiation involving wooden paddles and me screaming 'Thank you sir, may I have another?!' do you?"

Sam Browning
5/17/2003 10:04pm,
Hi Gongolongo:

Notice how I said that the majority of people stabbed to death in the USA were done in with kitchen knives which were not designed for such use. That being staid, as author David Steele has pointed out, there have been cases where such blades have broken when someone tried to stab someone else and hit bone. For a few more bucks one might want to buy a knife where that is never going to be an issue.

Gongolongo
5/18/2003 2:30am,
Are you talking about buying a knife that won't break when you stab to the bone? What kind of psychotic numbnuts bullshit is that?

The chance of you EVER having to deal with that situation is nil. You have a better chance of being struck by lightning than ever having the stab someone with a knife, esp. to the bone.

To type messages back and forth touting the virtues of one tactical knife brand over the other in an attempt to sound knowledgeable about the subject (like these guys have ever actually tested these knives on another person to know about jack ****, other than heresay lore from Soldier of Fortune magazine) is just plain silly.

"Gee, if I'm stabbing someone straight to the bone one day, which does happen quite frequently, you know, I want to make sure my blade won't break!"

"Oh well then buy the Painmaster 1000. That's my favorite knife for stabbing to the bone! I've only had one of them break when stabbing to the bone, and even then it wasn't really the knife's fault, ho ho ho!"

Jesus, this is a fantasy discussion where a bunch of idiots who jack off to the smokey mountain knife catalogue get their jollies one-upping each other by naming knife brands and some bullshit knife fighting lore they heard one day.

Gongolongo
5/18/2003 2:33am,
Tactical folder! Hahaha...when was the last time you ever "went tactical" with it, deus?

Oh, whittling a little hummingbird from a block of wood or picking your toenails doesn't count by the way.

IndoChinese
5/18/2003 2:44am,
"Oh well then buy the Painmaster 1000. That's my favorite knife for stabbing to the bone! I've only had one of them break when stabbing to the bone, and even then it wasn't really the knife's fault, ho ho ho!"

LOL... oh ****, that was good!

i tend to agree.

the knife is nothing compared to the hand that wields it.

unless you get her one of the knives from that stallone movie,"Cobra"...clinkclink....clinkclink..

any decent knife should do. fixed edge. and maybe teach her baton work first. short stick levers and pressure points. get her a keychain kubotan(centerpunch). self defense with weapons is the same as self defense with the bare hands, just augmented. most all locking technique can be enhanced with pressure point stimulation via short stick pressure.


and of course there is FMA/IMA too.







peace.

" a cow doesnt whinny, and a horse has no udder, back is to the sides, and sideways is straight ahead"

IndoChinese
5/18/2003 3:01am,
LOL

still she cant take the dog on a date. he has a right to be concerned for his daughter's safety. what would you do for your daughter?

peace.

" a cow doesnt whinny, and a horse has no udder, back is to the sides, and sideways is straight ahead"

Punisher
5/18/2003 3:03am,
Uh...Not to break up the discussion on what knifes are best, and how much they cost, but I think there is a bigger issuse here.

Pat, I'm a little concerned about what you and your daughter might be thinking. Does your daughter just want to train with knives or does she want to acutally carry one for defense on a regular basis.

If you're are thinking the second, I'd really reconsider. First of all, if this is the 17 year old you have spoken about in the past, realize right away that being caught with a blade at work or school can get here fired or expelled. Many places have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to weapons. It doesn't matter if their for "defense" purposes only.

I repeat, I'm not just talking high school. Major universities and companies have tried to crack down hard to prevent workplace or campus violence, and that means no weapons on the premises for any reason.

I have a tanto that I wanted to show to a interested friend of mine at work. My boss overheard me say that I'd bring it in the next day and show it to him. I was then told that if I did so, I would lose my job.

My boss wasn't being a dick, I consider him a friend and mentor, he was trying to prevent me from making him fire me for a stupid reason. I know this is overboard, but it got so bad that having a baseball bat or set of golf clubs in the trunk of your car on company property was technichally a violation.

If you really want to keep your daughter safe, I'd get her a cell phone before I got her a knife. She seems smart and confident, so I really don't think she is going to have too many problems she can't handle.



<marquee>Dragon , Snake , Tiger , Leopard , Crane. R.M.F.A.F.T.A.T.! </marquee>

deus ex machina
5/18/2003 3:03am,
Gongolongo,
I use my knives as tools. And like anything else, I prefer to be educated about the product that I buy. I also try to get the best for my money as possible. It is also a hobby of mine, so I know a bit more about knives than the average person.
If you have a problem with that, that's fine. You don't have to like me or like what I like. If I really bother you that much, the open invitation to the West Coast Rumble still stands. Then I can show you what I've learned from
some bullshit knife fighting lore they heard one day.

Peace.

~
danny

"All this talk about 'newbies' is making me a little nervous. You guys don't have any sort of secret hazing initiation involving wooden paddles and me screaming 'Thank you sir, may I have another?!' do you?"